Sex Talk with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner (Episode 301)
*Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.*
1 Corinthians 7:3 NIV “The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.”
*Transcription Below*
Thank you to our sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are best known for their pioneer work in encouraging people of all faiths to connect their sexuality with their belief system ─ helping them embrace sex as good and of God. Dr. Clifford is a licensed clinical psychologist and Joyce is a registered nurse and clinical nurse specialist. They are highly respected authors and speakers, in addition to being parents and grandparents.
Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner’s Website
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books By Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner:
Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women
The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex
The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment
Sex FAQ We Didn’t Have Time to Cover Today
Questions and Topics We Cover:
What ongoing conversations do you recommend married couples discuss about sex?
How do you work with couples to move from inhibition in the bedroom to freedom?
For married couples with the highest ratings for marital and sexual satisfaction, what are they doing right?
Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner:
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:48)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware of before you listen to this message.
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous settings, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy. Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner are my very popular returning guests for today.
They are pioneers with Christian sex therapy, and so we've had many discussions in the past related to various topics of sexual intimacy. So, I'll make sure and put links in the show notes, so after this episode you can just simply click on one of those and hear all of their previous wisdom shared. But today we're going to be discussing things more like the effects of stress that it has on our sex life, how we have healthy negotiation around sexual intimacy in marriage, and even ways that our nervous system impacts our sexual intimacy. Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Cliff and Joyce. Well, it's great to be back.
Joyce Penner: (1:48 - 1:52)
We always enjoy this time with you, so we're looking forward to it.
Laura Dugger: (1:53 - 2:13)
Likewise, I, goodness gracious, get so excited to speak with the two of you, and we'll just dive right in because you've been on previously to discuss so many things, but I'm wondering if you'll share what are sexual similarities and differences for men and women that would be helpful for all of us to know?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (2:13 - 2:40)
Well, it's interesting, when the Sex and the Brain research came out, I think it was published about 2007, it talked about differences, but most recently the research is showing that when they look at the different brains of a male and a female, there's really difficult to tell that there's much difference, but experientially, there are differences.
Joyce Penner: (2:41 - 3:01)
For example, for a couple that has not had sex for a long time, days, weeks, even months, it's often very difficult then for the woman to get interested, whereas the man is usually much more eager. It takes a woman longer to get into it, the longer it's been since the last time.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (3:02 - 3:44)
And that's why we encourage couples to be intentional about their sexual relationship and schedule time for each other, even if they don't feel like it, just because if it's long between each sexual experience or between getting release, women and men go in the opposite direction. The longer it is, the less interested, typically, a woman is. It's harder to get into it. It's like she's kind of shut down that part of herself. That can be true for men, too. But more often, for men, the longer it is, the more eager they are, the more anxious they get, and the more...
Joyce Penner: (3:44 - 3:55)
The more it becomes about the sexual experience, not so much about the relationship. Right. Another one of the differences is that...
Dr. Clifford Penner: (3:56 - 4:07)
have more pressure for the excitement phase, the arousal, because you can't have sex without an erection, but you can have sex without vaginal lubrication, because you can use a lubricant.
Joyce Penner: (4:08 - 4:32)
But because women are often more in the passive role, they have more difficulty getting with the orgasm part of the experience, because you have to be active in going after it. And that doesn't work as well. So that's why we talk about men having difficulty getting aroused, and women having difficulty having an orgasm.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (4:32 - 6:09)
And this might be a good time to talk about the nervous system and how it affects, because the first part of a sexual experience, when we're getting aroused, is controlled by the passive side of our involuntary nervous system. The whole sexual experience is controlled by an automatic or automated or involuntary nervous system, not the voluntary. You know, the voluntary controls our muscles and what we do with our actions. But our body's response, like our heart beating and blood pressure and all that, is involuntary. And so, the parasympathetic nervous system is the relaxed side of our involuntary nervous system. And that's what's dominant when we're getting aroused.
And since women tend to be more passive, that seems to be easier for them than it is for men, especially if they're anxious and they're interfering with that involuntary nervous system. Whereas women, as we move from arousal to release, we have to switch from the passive to the active, the sympathetic nervous system. And so, if we don't make that switch, we often get stuck right before we're going to go over the hill, it feels like, you know, right before that active side. So, we encourage women to get more active and men to get more passive. But that's a difference.
Joyce Penner: (6:10 - 6:38)
And then we would say there's one biblical difference also, and that is that the Bible talks about the man, the husband loving his wife like Christ, love the church, in fact, giving himself up for her. And in the Song of Solomon, it talks about the woman going after the experience and being the one inviting him. So, it's really the opposite of the way it's talked about in society.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (6:39 - 7:04)
Right. That the man's role is to get with his wife where she is rather than her pleasing him. And she's going to actually please him more when she gets with her own sexuality and shares it with him. And men will often say, well, that isn't quite fair. I'm good at getting with my own sexuality and sharing it with her. Why do I have to get with her?
Joyce Penner: (7:04 - 7:23)
But the fact is that if he does get with her, there's nothing that makes a man feel more fulfilled than a responsive, interested woman. And so, when he does get with her and she joins the party, that's rewarding for him, too.
Laura Dugger: (7:25 - 7:43)
That is all so fascinating. And to get specific, then talking about the nervous system, do you have any specific examples or ways that for the man that he can intentionally become more passive and for the woman to intentionally become more active in that moment?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (7:43 - 8:15)
Absolutely. Yes. And this is hard, particularly when we have exercises in our book, Restoring the Pleasure. And it starts with training them in that regard to be able to just relax and give a face or foot and hand caress or a back rub or something that just relaxes. And that when they're in a sexual experience, that she be more active with her body and with her touching and he be more passive.
Joyce Penner: (8:15 - 8:46)
For example, men often want to immediately go to the exciting parts of the body, breast stimulation, clitoral stimulation, that kind of thing. And that usually happens. It happens too fast for the woman. And so, staying away from the hot spots for a while until she is ready for that is the main way that you can train a man. A man can train himself to back off from that intensity.
Laura Dugger: (8:48 - 9:02)
That is really good. And then as the two of you have traveled the globe for many years and you've been discussing the topic of sex, do you find that culturally we're more alike or different there?
Joyce Penner: (9:02 - 9:12)
Well, there are many, many ways in which the primary issues that people deal with are true everywhere. But there are some very specific cultural differences.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (9:13 - 9:19)
And that's been kind of eye opening to us in our traveling and speaking to different groups.
Joyce Penner: (9:19 - 9:37)
For example, in cultures where there is a male dominant kind of perspective. In fact, we were we were in Mexico giving a lecture to about 800 people from the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (9:37 - 9:48)
They train family counselors that are, you know, lay people in the church who are available to help. And so, we were training these counselors.
Joyce Penner: (9:48 - 10:08)
And we were translated into Spanish from what we were saying. And we knew from the message that we were getting from the audience that that he was trans, the man who was translating for us was translating it into a male dominant system rather than an egalitarian mutual system. And so, we had to keep changing it.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (10:09 - 10:47)
And staying in a different way to try to get the message across. And then when we were in Jakarta, Indonesia, and you know what's happened is a broader impact on us is standing back and trying to look at how are we interpreting scripture through our cultural lens, because it was interesting because we were dealing with we weren't talking to Muslims. We were talking to Christians group. But they had adopted and incorporated into their belief system many of the Muslim restrictions.
Joyce Penner: (10:48 - 11:01)
Because they're in a Muslim culture so that it's part of the culture as a whole, not just the Muslim culture, but the Christian culture as well. And so, we had to kind of deal with that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (11:02 - 11:14)
And we've even experienced that when couples come to us here that are from another culture and how we work with them. We have to come at it a different way and re-understand.
Joyce Penner: (11:14 - 11:22)
For example, in some cultures, passionate kissing is just not a part of the experience. And so.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (11:23 - 11:34)
And we really promote passionate kissing because that's what gets the dopamine going and the brain chemicals that gives us a little excitement in our sex life.
Joyce Penner: (11:34 - 11:50)
And while it could be a stereotype, we see that more in Asian cultures, particularly Chinese, where the passionate kissing is not seen as so much a part of the sexual experience. And so those are some of the kind of differences.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (11:51 - 12:26)
Yeah, that one we experienced in Singapore when we were talking, teaching and training. And they said, we don't do that here. You know, we don't we don't do that here. So, but again, those are generalizations. That's not true of everyone in that culture. But it just it makes us aware that we all need to be sensitive to and caring about and communicate effectively with people that may have been raised with other ways of thinking and how much we ourselves impose on our interpretation because of our culture.
Laura Dugger: (12:27 - 14:42)
That's so good. And you've already brought it back to the Bible. But that that more than culture is our place to go for wisdom. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And now a brief message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase. There is an opportunity for you.
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Are you noticing any patterns of common sexual issues that couples are experiencing currently? Maybe even thinking of things such as elevated levels of stress?
Joyce Penner: (14:43 - 15:41)
Well, that certainly is true when you have both couples working full-time and getting the kids to soccer practice and picking up the dry cleaning and all of just- Homework for the next day and packing their lunches for the next day and then you're exhausted. And so- So that's one of the things that we have noticed a lot, but probably a much bigger one has been the impact of porn on the sexual life. And that seems to be increasing as, and has increased significantly over the, throughout the last decade because it's so available and- The way we always talk about it is everyone walks around with their phone in their pocket, which has two billion or more porn sites that they can go to. So, we don't have to go to the sleazy side of town.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (15:42 - 16:20)
Well, and even- They're ready for us. When you're on the computer, you know, things pop up all the time. Like even while we were waiting to start with you, something popped up. It wasn't porn, but kids can be on, and unless the parents have put blockers on, pornography can pop up. And it's natural for kids to respond to that and to be curious about it and to go there. So that, and then the thing that I've been getting a lot of calls about, I'm not practicing anymore, but I'm still taking calls and answering questions.
Joyce Penner: (16:20 - 16:29)
We should probably tell our audience that we're both 85 years old now, so we're trying to slow down a little bit, but not much.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (16:29 - 17:38)
Yeah, but I still enjoy taking calls and just triaging and getting them with the right referrals and that kind of thing. But the most calls I've had in the last, probably, year have been from women who are either getting married or have just been married and were raised in the purity culture, and they just cannot switch their brain and their body from it's bad, it's bad, it's bad, to now it's good, it's good, it's good, and you're supposed to enjoy it.
And it's just, they're just really sad and stuck, and that's really sad to us that we believe that that doesn't have to be part of the decision to wait for marriage if we have been trained and taught how good sex is and how wonderful it is and how God wants it to be the most wonderful part of your marriage. And they haven't been taught that, or they've only heard at least the part about don't let yourself feel, don't let yourself think, don't let yourself touch, don't let yourself do this, do that, do that.
Joyce Penner: (17:40 - 17:46)
And then I would add one more big change that's happened in recent years, and that is the focus on hormones.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (17:46 - 18:11)
Yes, yeah. And the acceptance and need and necessity to deal with hormones, and since the original women's study has been found to not, the results not to be that accurate in terms of because of how the hormone that was used for the study and all that.
Joyce Penner: (18:11 - 18:15)
The one that warned against estrogen use as a cancer.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (18:15 - 18:33)
Right, so then all the hormones have been shut down, and birth control pills and hormone replacement therapy and all that. But that's coming back, and there's just some great information.
Laura Dugger: (18:33 - 18:55)
Yeah, well, I guess one more follow-up with that, because I agree there is still a group of people definitely that also reach out to the savvy. So, I was talking about that same thing. It's always flipping the switch of, I was told no, no, no, and now it's all yes. Do you have any wisdom to share for that, for what they can do first to begin growing in freedom?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (18:56 - 19:39)
Right, it would be nice if they could recognize that and deal with it before marriage and take a long time for their engagement. And once they've decided who and when they're going to get married and spend time reading and working together on a resource like our Getting Your Sex Life Off to a Great Start. And start by talking about it and praying about it and thanking God for their designing them as sexual, recognizing that sex is good enough, God, and that he wants us to have a wonderful sex life and marriage.
Joyce Penner: (19:40 - 20:08)
And so, well, and he would add to that and letting themselves have sexual feelings, even if they're not going to intercourse, but that those are positive things. And so, what part of the purity culture kept saying is, don't let yourself have those feelings. And so, we would encourage them to start letting them. That's why the idea of not kissing until you're at the altar is a horrible idea.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (20:11 - 20:18)
That's the most intimate thing, part of our, and to do that in a public setting for the first time.
Joyce Penner: (20:20 - 20:26)
That's like saying, have your first intercourse at the front of the altar. I mean, it's about that stupid.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (20:27 - 21:00)
But yeah, so getting used to each other in some ways before is very helpful. Or if they really can't do that, then deciding to wait and take the first months of their marriage to read and get used to each other and talk and touch and experiment and do some different exercises. Don't expect to go from nothing to a full sexual experience. That would be the basic message.
Laura Dugger: (21:01 - 21:17)
Really appreciate that. And what I don't hear you saying, I don't hear you saying before marriage, practice by having sexual intercourse. It's just grow in your understanding and wisdom and training your mind. Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Joyce Penner: (21:17 - 21:30)
And be aware that there's a whole spectrum of sexual experiences. You can feel turned on holding hands or hugging or kissing forever, long before you get to intercourse.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (21:30 - 22:27)
And those feelings are good and of God, and if we shut those off, we can choose our actions, but we shouldn't shut off the feelings because those are involuntary. Those start right at birth. A little boy has his first erection within five to 10 minutes of birth. A girl lubricates vaginally within the first 24 hours. And we always say we're always a little bit slower. We as women take a little more time. That's one of those differences, but we do get there. But those responses are designed by God, and they're good. And every time you have them, even if you're not married as a single person, just thank God for them and pray for someday when you will be and you can enjoy those in marriage so that you prepare yourself for sex and marriage. You don't have sex before marriage, but you prepare yourself for sex and marriage.
Laura Dugger: (22:28 - 22:34)
What other piece of sex education do you think is missing from most homes?
Joyce Penner: (22:34 - 22:59)
Well, we have five principles that we wish everyone had been taught by the time they're 13 years old. The first is that sex is good, and it's by God's design. That's a core belief. Secondly, that sexual curiosity is natural. Everyone will be interested in it.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (22:59 - 23:59)
And that's why pornography is such a hook because we're designed to be curious about it, but the world has given us this new input, distorted image. And so, it's really dangerous. And many times, even young adults aren't looking for it. They just happen upon it. And then that fact that they're curious, and so teaching them that sex is good and of God. And then it's natural to be curious, teaching our children that. And so, when things come up that aren't good or healthy, it's natural for you to be interested, but we encourage you and then teach them. And we're not the experts on how to teach kids and handle that, but there are experts out there. But to not shame them for being interested, but teach them how they can manage it. And when we teach them that difference, which is one of the other principles that...
Joyce Penner: (23:59 - 24:20)
Well, yeah. So, sex is good and of God. Sexual curiosity is natural. Sexual responses are innate. We are born as sexual beings, and that our responsiveness and interest is natural to us. And there's nothing evil about that. That's how we were made.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (24:20 - 24:27)
It's good, in fact. Not only not evil, it's a God thing. His image that we were designed that way.
Joyce Penner: (24:28 - 24:41)
So good and of God. Curiosity is natural. Responses are a given. But the fourth principle is we are responsible for what we do with those feelings.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (24:41 - 25:00)
So sexual responsibility belongs to each of us. And the standard for that, for making those decisions, is the fifth point that we can teach them are the biblical standards and mutual respect. That mutuality that's so clear.
Joyce Penner: (25:00 - 25:24)
That no one gets violated in any of these experiences. And that when we have this context of good and curious and innate, and we're each responsible, and then we are taught the guiding principles from the scriptures, that's what we everyone was aware of by the time they reach pubescence.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (25:24 - 25:50)
And I think if that were taught, then the purity culture taught within that context. So that's number five. Those are the decisions, four and five. That's the responsibility and the decisions, and how you handle those decisions, rather than that the feelings or the sexuality gets shut down to handle the decisions.
Laura Dugger: (25:51 - 26:06)
I love how much you've thought through this and then can articulate it in five memorable points. Those are so good. And I'm also curious, what ongoing conversations do you recommend married couples discuss about sex?
Joyce Penner: (26:07 - 26:36)
Almost all couples have some differences or tensions around frequency, how often they're together, who initiates. One is wishing the other would initiate more. Or wishing they wouldn't. They wouldn't initiate so often. Talking about that. And the best thing that we find there is if we can get them to read something out loud together.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (26:36 - 26:54)
Because it's for many couples, if they've never talked about it, they may have been married a long time and never had a discussion about their sex life. It's really hard to say, well, I think that's an important thing for you to talk about, period. It won't happen. Because they need a tool.
Joyce Penner: (26:55 - 27:00)
She'll say, okay, go ahead. You lead. No, you lead.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (27:01 - 27:18)
If they even get that far. But if they came to our office and we just told them that, it wouldn't just happen because we told them. They have to have something specific. So, we find one of the biggest helps is them reading out loud together.
Joyce Penner: (27:19 - 27:25)
So, it's not that they go off into their corner and read by themselves. They read out loud together.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (27:26 - 27:52)
And it's amazing how many times we will give the assignment to read something out loud together, usually in one of our books. And they come in and, yeah, we read it. And they'll ask, well, did you read it together? And they'll say, I read it, and I read it, and this kind of thing. And then I'll have to explain again, well, the important thing is to hear each other read it so that you're comfortable talking about this.
Joyce Penner: (27:53 - 27:59)
So, the two books that we recommend there would be our book, The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex. That's from the man's perspective.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (27:59 - 28:44)
But it's not just for the man. It's really important for them both to read both of these. And then Enjoy! The Gift of Sexual Pleasure for Women. And another thing we say, this isn't like getting a school homework assignment where you do it as fast as you can to get it done. It's much more, if you read one sentence and it triggers discussion, that's wonderful. Even if you might have 15 minutes discussion and have used all your time on that one sentence. Or maybe you read a whole chapter and there really isn't that much in that chapter. But when you're reading out loud, you talk about things as you think about them and as you have reactions.
Joyce Penner: (28:45 - 29:06)
One of the basic principles there is that many times growing up, people have not gotten used to the words to use. So, they can't even articulate accurately or say the words that aren't just normal words like penis or vagina or something like that. But they're not used to saying a direct word.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (29:06 - 29:31)
And then sometimes they don't even know, which has been interesting to us, the difference between the different body parts because nobody's ever taught them. So, there are a lot of things that are missed and that's why we came up with these five principles because that kind of opens the door to a lot of different discussions. And if children hear that being talked or recognized in the home, that'll make a big difference once they're married.
Laura Dugger: (29:32 - 29:46)
And it's just promoting intimacy all around, which is great for married couples. But then also, do you believe there's a time for quickie sex or what wisdom would you like to share about quickie sex?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (29:46 - 29:51)
Well, we were just... Our daughter, in fact, sent us an article by...
Joyce Penner: (29:52 - 30:00)
This is from Sally Greenwald, who doesn't come from a Christian perspective, but she talks about...
Dr. Clifford Penner: (30:00 - 30:04)
She's an OBGYN at Stanford University.
Joyce Penner: (30:04 - 30:52)
And she talks about what she calls efficient sex. She believes that the best way to improve a sex life is to drop the romantic notion as constant, that it requires a special frame of mind to get into that romantic mode. She says if you're going to have a quickie efficient sex, even if you're reluctant because an orgasm will help improve your mood and ultimately your health and your relationship. So yes, it's good to have those long drowned out romantic loving times, but most people more regularly will need to have what she calls efficient sex.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (30:52 - 31:13)
And that goes back to our today's world with stress and lack of time and that kind of thing. And yet it's also good if a person can't get into a sexual experience like that, to take time to touch and caress, not depend on the romantic feelings, but get your body warmed up.
Joyce Penner: (31:13 - 31:24)
And she was using the example that we've often used, and that is it's kind of like exercise. You may dread going to the gym, but you're usually glad when you did.
Laura Dugger: (31:26 - 31:56)
Okay. And then I like that, the efficient sex. I hadn't heard it put that way. No, we hadn't either. We liked that too. And she's right about the so many benefits for the couple being cemented together and experiencing orgasm. But what if, usually it'd be the wife, you've said she takes a lot longer if she's not experiencing orgasm with quickie sex. Is that to be expected or what's your recommendation around that?
Joyce Penner: (31:56 - 32:05)
Her goal, which she's writing from, and we would tend to agree is that it is for both to experience the orgasm in that.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (32:06 - 32:13)
But you're saying that often isn't possible in quickie sex for a woman. That's right.
Joyce Penner: (32:13 - 32:13)
Yeah.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (32:14 - 32:14)
She doesn't really feel.
Joyce Penner: (32:14 - 32:42)
She doesn't address that. So, what we would say there is that it depends on how the woman feels afterwards so that you wouldn't determine it as something for the man. But if she feels like, I'm glad we had that connection, even though I didn't have enough time to get aroused and have an orgasm. But the benefit of that should come primarily from where it leaves the woman feeling.
Laura Dugger: (32:43 - 33:20)
Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips, and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights? Make sure you access all of this at thesavvysauce.com by clicking the button that says, join our email list so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy. And how do you work with couples to move from inhibition in the bedroom to more full freedom?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (33:21 - 34:07)
Well, that's one that we work with a lot and with many different, and it's taking very small steps. And we have a little graph that we use that describes on one side of the graph, the inhibition on the other side, the freedom. And we have the person or the couple describe what is the inhibition and then know where are you now and where would you like to be? And then trying to define small steps of getting from where you are to where you'd like to be. Because most of the time when we're trying to make change in our lives, we want to jump from where we are to where we want to be. And then we keep trying to jump and can't make the jump. And when we break it down into small steps, it's a lot easier.
Joyce Penner: (34:08 - 34:25)
It's kind of, if you think of being 50 pounds overweight, we want to be 50 pounds less, but it works better if we go from 50 to 49. And in sex, it's kind of the same way. It has to be those just noticeable differences that move us along.
Laura Dugger: (34:26 - 34:40)
That's good. So, what may be a first step, especially thinking of that couple that's reached out before and they said, I feel like I am having a hard time flipping the switch. What's the first one degree change they can make?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (34:40 - 35:34)
Well, it depends on what the issue is. Like, if the inhibition is that they aren't free with their body, then we might have them do what we call is a body image inventory, where they talk about all the different parts of their body. Maybe they write about it to themselves first. So, it depends so much on what the inhibition is. If the inhibition is being touched or touching in some way, then let's say a woman is uncomfortable touching her husband's genitals, or maybe he's uncomfortable touching hers. And so, we might start by having them fully closed, sitting by the TV, and just patting the leg, and then getting comfortable with that, and then moving toward patting over the genitals.
Joyce Penner: (35:34 - 35:46)
Just putting the hand over with clothes on, not moving to a sexual experience, but just small, manageable differences. And that would be an example.
Laura Dugger: (35:47 - 36:17)
That's great. And I'm thinking of more questions. So, going back to quickie sex, especially thinking of newlywed couples, but really applies to anyone, when we've talked a few times about the female typically takes a little bit longer to get there, do you have studies on how much time to expect, or what's normal, or are there any ways to speed up the process, or should that not really be a goal?
Joyce Penner: (36:17 - 36:36)
Well, usually when we think of speeding up the process, it has to do with how she has been preparing her mind and her body before she even gets there. You know, if she has, if she was in a hopeful mode, rather than a dreading mode, that is really going to make a difference.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (36:37 - 37:13)
And if she's listening to her body, and our book and joy really does a lot of help with that to help women learn to how do we listen, and then how do we lead with our bodies. So, I have a whole, we have a whole chapter on there on how we listen to our bodies, and learning to listen to her body and go after what's good for her and let herself feel it and then feeling free to touch herself during the sexual experience and get herself warmed up if that's more comfortable for her than having him touch her.
Joyce Penner: (37:13 - 37:34)
And we wouldn't think of that as masturbation. No. We would think of that as just a part of the experience. Their love play. And then another thing would be for her to guide him in terms of putting her hand over his hand and guide what brings her the most pleasure. So that, assuming she knows what does.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (37:34 - 38:15)
Right, right. So, there may be some learning that has to happen, some leading up to it, which we deal with in Restoring the Pleasure. That's the steps to overcoming problems. So, if there are barriers that keep her from being able to have an orgasm, I think this writer is writing from the perspective not of sexual dysfunction, but more if everything is working, this is how to proceed. With the efficient sex. Yeah, with the efficient. But if the woman isn't able to be orgasmic or hasn't been, maybe then first they have to do some self-help or get help on going through the conditioning her body to be able to respond.
Laura Dugger: (38:17 - 38:27)
And then for married couples who are giving the highest ratings of marital and sexual satisfaction, what are they doing right?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (38:28 - 38:52)
Yes. So, we have defined five key principles. And the first one we've already talked about, and that's embracing our differences rather than making them conflictual or trying to change the other person to be like us. You know, in every marriage, I know it's true for me, especially I always want to change him, you know, if only he was more like me, we may get so much easier.
Joyce Penner: (38:54 - 38:57)
No, I'm just totally satisfied with everything she does.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (38:57 - 39:19)
Yeah. But embracing those differences and realizing that each of us has strengths and weaknesses, and if the other one can fill in those weaknesses, and in the sexual area, it makes it more interesting if we combine those differences and go with both of them rather than trying to change.
Joyce Penner: (39:19 - 39:39)
So, embracing the differences is the first thing. The second one is to pursue mutuality. And the Bible speaks about this clearly in 1 Corinthians 7, where it talks about the marriage bed must be a place of mutuality. It has to be as good for one as it is for the other.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (39:39 - 40:15)
You know, it's interesting in the New Testament, wherever it talks about sex and marriage, it incorporates a command for mutuality, like even in Ephesians 5, submit yourselves one to another. And then it starts with a few sentences about the woman submitting, and then about 12 verses for the man. We're slow learners. But we, in our culture, focus more on the woman submitting than we have on how the man submits, and that he submits by loving her as Christ loved us and giving up his rights to get with her where she is.
Joyce Penner: (40:15 - 40:34)
So, the first thing is embracing our differences. Secondly, pursue mutuality. And the third one is to focus on pleasure and enjoyment rather than on the goals. And by that, we mean the goals of getting aroused. Am I getting aroused? Is she getting aroused?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (40:35 - 40:59)
And that would fit when we're doing a quickie. You know, if we're going into it just focused on making sure it works, then it's not likely, again, because it's an involuntary nervous system. The more we focus on the result and the orgasm, the less likely it is to happen because then we're going into our head and not listening to our body and going after what our body needs.
Joyce Penner: (40:59 - 41:10)
So that's why we like to talk about focusing on the pleasure of the experience. And the enjoyment. And the good feelings of arousal will grow out of the pleasure rather than focusing on the goals.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (41:11 - 41:33)
And the pleasure might just be enjoying the touch, not that your body is responding, but it just feels so good and you need the coziness and the connection. And then when there are differences or difficulties that get in the way, seeking self-help or a professional counselor to get past those hurts and those wounds.
Joyce Penner: (41:33 - 41:51)
And the most common issues that couples struggle with are differences in desire level, how often their interest level. And then there might be relational conflicts that don't have anything to do with sex, but if you're mad at each other or hurt by each other or whatever it may be.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (41:52 - 42:01)
Dagmar O'Connor years ago, said, then have angry sex. You know, don't let it get in the way of your sex life. Work it out together.
Joyce Penner: (42:01 - 42:07)
And or if there's pain, physical pain that needs to get dealt with. You can't just charge through it.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (42:07 - 42:18)
Right. And there we usually recommend seeking a pelvic floor physical therapist and that's good. Most cities have large cities have a pelvic floor physical therapist available.
Joyce Penner: (42:19 - 42:27)
And then if there's been abuse in the past that needs to get dealt with, that's for sure. Or if you have a porn addiction, that's going to get in the way.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (42:27 - 43:15)
So, all those are seek self-help or get professional help. And then practice intentionality. Rather than waiting for the romantic feelings as she talks about, just do it. And being intentional, we have developed a formula for intimacy that we've probably shared with you before. And that we find very helpful for couples to spend 15 minutes together each day, just sharing and looking into each other's eyes and hugging and kissing passionately and sharing a Bible verse or scripture or prayer together. And we have that in almost all our books and on our website, people want that.
Joyce Penner: (43:15 - 43:23)
But that has to be intentional. That can't just happen because you feel like it. That's something we do every day. We connect.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (43:23 - 43:32)
Yeah. And we encourage in that intentionality that each of us take responsibility to make it as good as it can be given our situation.
Joyce Penner: (43:33 - 44:02)
Yeah. And that's another very important thing to say as time goes on. When you're first married, it's all excitement and all assuming it's working. And then you have a child and the research has shown that the sex life drops by 50% when you have your first child. That's just what happens because the focus shifts from each other onto this now little burden and delight that we're taking care of.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (44:02 - 44:06)
Right. And that's 24-7 when they need us all the time.
Joyce Penner: (44:07 - 44:22)
And so that changes. And then there are career goals that happen. Somebody getting another degree or getting a new job or traveling, all that. And then you get older and then you have all your ailments that happen.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (44:23 - 44:24)
And a lot of time at the doctor.
Joyce Penner: (44:25 - 44:50)
Yeah. Whether it's breast cancer or back problems or you name it, that goes on and gets in the way. And so, we talk about given the reality of our circumstance, making it the best we can given the pleasure that is available to us today. So, embracing our fantasy dream.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (44:50 - 44:59)
Practice mutuality. Seek self-help when needed. Focus on pleasure and enjoyment, not results. And practice intentionality.
Laura Dugger: (45:01 - 45:29)
Love that. And like you said, that really encapsulates every stage that also I think our enemy is going to want to divide us in this way because sex can be so powerful in marriage. And I don't know what study it was, but just recently was reminded that after sexual intercourse in marriage, there is like a 48-hour afterglow where you just have the more positive feelings toward one another.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (45:29 - 45:30)
Right.
Laura Dugger: (45:30 - 45:37)
And extra grace given. I just think it's fascinating how many benefits the Lord built into sex in marriage.
Joyce Penner: (45:37 - 45:46)
Absolutely. We clearly see that. Yes, there's benefit of the sex itself, but then there's the benefit to the whole relationship.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (45:47 - 45:57)
There are many physical, emotional, mental health and relational benefits from the sexual experience. So be intentional and do it as often as you can.
Laura Dugger: (45:58 - 46:07)
I love that. And is there any other wisdom that you want to share about what God has specifically said about sex?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (46:08 - 46:37)
That it was His design and that He so highly values sex in marriage that throughout the Old Testament, He refers to the sexual relationship between a husband and wife as a model or symbol of God and His chosen people, Israel. He often talks about them in sexual terms, adoring him.
Joyce Penner: (46:37 - 46:38)
Romantic terms.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (46:38 - 47:05)
Romantic terms might be a better word. And then in the New Testament, that we are the bride of Christ and that Christ loves us unconditionally and gives Himself to us as the husband is to the wife. And that again, the sexual relationship in marriage is used as the model of our relationship with Christ through Jesus Christ.
Laura Dugger: (47:06 - 47:27)
Well said. And like you said, things have changed over the years. It's incredible, all of the great work that you're doing at 85 years of age. But you've said you've taken a step back from seeing clients, but is there anywhere you would recommend or direct us to go after this conversation to still learn from you?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (47:28 - 48:13)
Definitely. Our website, passionatecommitment.com. And on there, we have different videos. There are resources for parents. There are resources for professionals, different talks that we've given, podcasts like this that people can listen to. And they can also text, email, or call. And I take those calls and texts and emails. And we can guide them and answer questions. We won't do therapy anymore, but we can get them the help they need. And we keep a list of professional resources that we've gathered over the years.
Joyce Penner: (48:14 - 48:15)
Around the world, actually.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (48:15 - 48:27)
Yeah. But for sure, in almost every state, we have different resources for sexual therapy, pelvic floor people, medical doctors, different ways they can get help.
Joyce Penner: (48:29 - 48:36)
And then also, all our books are there. And those would be resources. And they can find those on the website also, Passionate Commitment.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (48:36 - 49:02)
Yeah. And we might just say a little bit about those. We talked about The Married Guy's Guide to Great Sex for men and Enjoy for Women. And we recommend buying those as a pair and reading them. And you could take turns from one to the other or read through one and then the other, however. But we definitely encourage couples to read them out loud to each other.
Joyce Penner: (49:02 - 49:26)
If they're dealing with very specific dysfunctions or barriers and want to try self-help first, the book we'd recommend there is a book called Restoring the Pleasure, where we take them through every step that we do in sexual therapy that they can work on themselves. They may need to get some professional help along the way, but a lot of things can be taken care of between the two of them. So those would be it.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (49:26 - 50:22)
And we might just explain because our sexual patterns, the way our brain works, are easily conditioned and self-perpetuating. And when they start, the patterns start negatively. Maybe the first response we had to an external stimulation like pornography, and now we're hooked on it. So, the only way we can respond is by imagining or looking at or watching porn. That's hard to get rid of that, but it has to be reconditioned. So, we have the couple start over and just eliminate all sexual activity and start gradually and recondition their brain as it controls their body to be able to respond. And that's what Restoring the Pleasure takes you through those steps. And the guidelines to follow in that process are key, not just the exercises and the steps.
Laura Dugger: (50:24 - 51:01)
And it reminds me; I just had a conversation with a premarital counselor who had reached out for resources for education for a couple. They still had a few months until marriage, but of course I gave him the referral to your website and our previous podcast episodes and all of your books. But as you're talking about that, just closing a loop from earlier, for premarital couples, would you encourage they also begin reading out loud to one another? Yes. And how early on do you recommend? Not that there's maybe an exact formula, but typically. Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (51:03 - 51:16)
Well, if it's less than six months till their wedding, start now. But it would be nice if they could start at least six months ahead, but even a year. And then...
Joyce Penner: (51:16 - 51:25)
Also depends on their level of sexual activity. Some of them will already have been sexual, and some of them will be waiting for marriage.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (51:26 - 52:29)
But even so, many times the couples who are sexually active think they don't need to read it because it's called getting your sex life off to a great start. I can see that, but we really should say getting your married sex life off to a great sex because it's a big transition from premarital to marriage. And it's so important that they read that even if they are sexually active. But the other issue is if they're saving sex for marriage, which is what we encourage, but we know that that isn't reality a lot of the times, even in Christian couples. So, if they are saving, then they're worried if they read out loud together that they won't be able to control themselves. So, we do encourage them not to read together in the privacy of their apartment all by themselves. Read in their parents' living room, go to the park and sit on the park bench and read.
Joyce Penner: (52:30 - 52:32)
If that's what they're worried about.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (52:32 - 52:32)
Yeah.
Joyce Penner: (52:33 - 52:49)
But that's another place though where we would encourage that fourth principle that we said we're all responsible for what we do with our feelings. So even if we get turned on, we don't have to act on them. But if they're going to be turned on all our life at various points and we don't act on it.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (52:49 - 53:08)
Right. But if they're concerned that they won't be able to control their actions, then read in a setting where they can't move to that or even read maybe over the phone or, you know, however, get it going as soon as they can.
Laura Dugger: (53:09 - 53:11)
So that's a great tip.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (53:11 - 53:44)
And especially because in marriage, it doesn't just give you a license to have sex whenever you want it as well or with whomever you want it, just because you're in a situation, you know, you might be in a situation working closely with somebody of the opposite sex and that you really need to learn external control, not control by shutting down feelings. In terms of getting turned on to somebody else, we probably do need to shut down the feelings too, but not if you're expecting to get married.
Laura Dugger: (53:45 - 54:02)
Yes. So great training principle. And the two of you are already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (54:03 - 54:06)
We had fun trying to come up with this one.
Joyce Penner: (54:07 - 54:23)
My first one was saying, remember that she needs warm feet to have a good sexual experience. So, give her a foot rub or wear socks. That's the sauce.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (54:24 - 54:48)
Warmth for us, for me, is so important. And that's true for a lot of women. Yeah. And one research said that when women have warm feet, they're more likely to orgasm. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I know that I need warm feet. So, wear socks or get a foot rub, whatever, before you expect to.
Joyce Penner: (54:48 - 54:50)
Is that saucy enough or do we need to get saucier?
Dr. Clifford Penner: (54:51 - 54:54)
That is so good. And it's practical. I love that.
Joyce Penner: (54:54 - 54:54)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Clifford Penner: (54:55 - 55:18)
And I have, because I'm always cold, I have like a heating thing that you put on a massage table on my side of our king-size bed. So, I have to turn on my heating pad. It isn't really a pad. It's a whole side of my bed before I get warmed up enough.
Laura Dugger: (55:20 - 55:55)
So wise. Such a great tip. Love that. Well, the two of you are so endearing and so inspirational. I love even seeing behind you this wall of books that you have your lifelong learners, your spry. You've shared everything with people around the world. When you learn it, you share, which to me is discipleship. And you have just modeled that so well with your humility and your love and devotion to Christ and to one another. So, it is just a joy to get to be in your presence. And I want to say thank you for being my returning guest today.
Joyce Penner: (55:56 - 56:01)
Oh, and we'll be happy to come again too. Don't mean we still have a few of our marbles left.
Laura Dugger: (56:01 - 56:04)
You're welcome back anytime.
Joyce Penner: (56:04 - 56:06)
Okay. Thank you so much.
Laura Dugger: (56:07 - 59:49)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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