Oral Sex, Frequency, Desire, and Other Topics Couples Negotiate in Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma (Episode 300)
*Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.*
Deuteronomy 30:19 + 20 “This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
*Transcription Below*
Dr. Michael Sytsma has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He is a licensed professional counselor in the state of Georgia, a Certified Sex Therapist, and a Certified Professional Counseling Supervisor. He is also an ordained minister with The Wesleyan Church and has served as a staff pastor for churches with attendance from 30 to over 1,000. He is currently appointed to Building Intimate Marriages, Inc. by The Wesleyan Church, where he provides marriage and sex therapy and training to other professionals. Michael also cofounded Sexual Wholeness, Inc., a Christian non-profit dedicated to training, equipping, and certifying professionals in human sexuality.
After earning a Bachelor of Science in Christian Ministry from Indiana Wesleyan University, Michael went on to receive a master’s degree in community counseling from Georgia State University and a diploma in Christian counseling from Psychological Studies Institute. He subsequently earned a Ph.D. from the University of Georgia in Child and Family Development/Marriage and Family Therapy, where he specialized in marital sexual therapy. His dissertation topic was “Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Married Couples.”
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Questions and Topics We Cover:
What habits do you see drawing married couples closer together and also what behaviors or mindsets are pulling them apart?
What are the different types of desire discrepancy?
Can you share what the Bible says about oral sex and also share research findings?
Previous Savvy Sauce Episodes with Dr Mike:
Ten Common Questions About Sex
Enjoying a God-honoring, Healthy Sex Life with Your Spouse
Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Sexual Desire Discrepancy in Marriage
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:47)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.
Today, I get to bring back our most repeated guest, Dr. Michael Sytsma. Our show notes are going to have links back to all of his previous episodes on The Savvy Sauce, and you're going to find out why he is invited back so frequently. Dr. Sytsma is a Christian sex therapist, an author, a counseling supervisor, and ordained minister. With a pastoral heart, a gift in teaching, and a passion for helping couples grow in marriage, Dr. Sytsma is the perfect guest for today to discuss these sensitive and sacred topics related to sexual intimacy in marriage. Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Mike.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:47 - 1:52)
Thank you so much. It's such an honor. It's always a joy to be with you and to talk through this.
Laura Dugger: (1:52 - 2:19)
Well, I'm always looking forward to these conversations. And I just want to begin with a broad overview where we can discuss both relationship builders and some of the sneaky relationship retractors. So, what habits do you see drawing married couples closer together? And then also, what are the behaviors and mindsets that are pulling them apart?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (2:21 - 5:57)
So, when I sit with couples, obviously the bulk of the couples that I work with are those that are struggling or wanting things to be better. So that may be a bit of a skewed. The couples that come into workshops even are often aware that something's not quite how they want it to be. And so, watching to see what makes a difference, exactly what you're asking. And one of the biggest things I see is just the intentionality of couples that are doing well. I think many times our culture tends to say that if you've picked the right person, if everything is going well, it'll be easy and everything will just flow well. And I find that amusing because it doesn't work in any other area of life. In our finances, we have to be disciplined with them. In parenting, we have to be disciplined with it. In our own health and exercise and what we eat. If we just ate whatever we wanted, I don't think things would be good. If we waited to feel to eat healthy, I don't think we would eat healthy.
And yet couples almost have this idea that you need to desire, you need to feel the urges to do what's healthy in the marriage. And those that wait for it and wait for their spouse to do it, they tend to get irritated and disillusioned and start to see each other negatively and pull apart versus those that sit down and develop a vision. Here's who we want to be as a couple. Here's who I want to be as a husband. Here's who I want to be as a wife. And we begin to lock ourselves into who we're becoming and who we're becoming as a couple and then live intentionally towards that. I see those couples do so much better.
Part of it is, you know, if you say to your husband, here's who I want to be as a wife. And he believes that. He believes that's your heart. Then the day that you get up, and I'm sure this never happens to you, but the day you get up and you're just not in a good mood, you know, the kids kept you awake at night or you didn't eat something that was good for you. You wake up and you're not in a mood. He can extend a ton of grace because he knows you're not satisfied with yourself. He knows that you're not going to like who you are right now and you're not going to tolerate that very long. So, he doesn't have to step in and try to control you, to manipulate you, to make you to be who he wants you to be. He can step back and extend grace knowing that you're probably going to come to him later that day or tomorrow and go, sorry, I wasn't in a good mood yesterday. It was probably tough to live with. And he knows you will reset and the same for him.
If he has a rough day and he doesn't treat you with the cherishing care that you know he wants to be, then you kind of step back and we'll give him a little bit of space. He'll figure it out. And he does. And he resets and he comes back and you make intentional steps towards that vision that you guys have co-created. Those couples tend to do really well. And I see those steps being a little different for different couples because their vision might be slightly different. But the consistent patterns and habits that I see are establishing that vision, locking into it and trusting that you'll do your work and I'm going to do mine. And we're intentional in moving forward with it.
Laura Dugger: (5:58 - 6:20)
Okay. So, I'm kind of hearing start with the end in mind, get on the same page with the conversation of what our vision is. And then intentionally, it sounds like pre-deciding before you're waiting for these feelings to come up to even pre-decide practical things of how often do we want to come together? What do we want that to look like? So, am I hearing that right?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (6:20 - 9:28)
Yep, very much so. And obviously there's a lot that's wrapped in it. Couples have to be able to communicate effectively, you know, hear and be heard to be able to sit down and sort through who do I want to be? Because usually a few years into marriage, we're starting to ascribe motivation and desire to our spouse that's not fully accurate. And we begin to define them different than they see themselves to be able to hear that, to be able to figure out who do I want to be? How do I work with the personality that I have? Mike works in idiosyncrasies and who's the best person that I can become? And then to be able to share that with each other.
So many couples don't sit down and really talk through. As you know, sex therapy is my primary research and interest area. And so, working a lot with couples that most of the couples I work with have never shared their vision for what they want their sex life to look like. They might've argued about frequency or certain behaviors, but they've never really shared vision. And most when I challenged them to don't have a clue of themselves really how to articulate what they want. So once that vision has been discussed and talked about, then yes, they can start to sort through, well, how do we get there? And can we give ourselves permission for some time?
I told a couple of you yesterday, guys, this is going to take decades to get to where you want to be. And you get to see his face. I said, this doesn't mean that we wait decades till we get there, but you've created a really beautiful vision and nobody can do that overnight. You're going to have to regularly work at it. And you're right. That intentionality of what are we going to do?
I tell couples my recipe is 15 minutes of connect time every day where you're leaning into each other. How are you doing? Really? What's going on? And then a one hour a week, a business meeting, I call it a working date where we sit down, we do the business of marriage. Just being intentional in how do we do this? Well, at least every other week to do a fun date where we are just going and playing together. We're not trying to work on anything. We're not talking about anything difficult. We're playing together. And then once a year, some kind of a continuing ed for their marriage, whether that be some marriage therapy, a retreat, a workshop, going through a sermon series and talking about it, reading a book together, something that gets them to really focus back on how are we doing and how do we make this better? Those are all intentional things that have to be done on a regular basis. Couples who make those, like you say, early decisions and then work to consistently follow through on them. Not perfectly, but consistently following through.
Laura Dugger: (9:30 - 10:08)
I love that because the fruit of it is so enjoyable then to be married to one another if you've got this intentional relationship rather than the other option is for it to really overflow into all areas of life and be difficult. But you're clearly a world-leading Christian sex therapist, so I'm very eager to hear your insight on this as well. What would you say is the current trend for trouble areas with sex and intimacy that you're seeing with your clients or people that you meet through traveling the world to speak?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (10:11 - 12:58)
Obviously, some of the standards that have been a part of human culture, especially my area of interest, is desire discrepancy. Whether that be husbands and wives who desire different frequencies, who desire different practices, who desire a different tone. I want wild and crazy and you want soft and nurturing. The differing desires are a primary area of conflict for couples. Because if you're not doing what I want, my natural instinct is to lean in and start to make you be that way. And humans don't tend to do well with pressure, so it tends to shut things down and then it spins out. So that's always an ongoing one, but that's also being my primary area of research and focus, one that I see a lot just in looking.
But one that the research seems to be showing that is a bit disturbing, and we've got theories behind what's going on, but we're seeing a decrease in sexual frequency amongst couples, a decrease in couples connecting. Whether that be connecting centrally, nurturing kind of touch, you know, the tender hugs and kisses, caresses, the snuggling together at night, or the more intimate sexual encounters where couples are having intercourse or they're engaging for sexual pleasure, we're seeing a drop in those. We saw it drop. COVID was not friendly to many aspects of marriage, and we saw a lot of it drop towards the end of that. And in many respects, it hasn't recovered, according to some of the research. So that would be an area of concern, because if couples are not connecting, many times they're acting out on their own, because it's easy, I don't have to negotiate you, there's plenty of options and ways to go about doing that. And the experiences, the chemicals that are released when we connect with each other, the associating you with pleasure, all of those things decrease, and they're critical in marriage. So that would be an area that we're kind of keeping an eye on. Is that going to bounce back? What is really going on? Is it a temporary thing, or is it just a glitch in the numbers? And it doesn't seem to be, seems to be what's happening.
Laura Dugger: (13:00 - 13:19)
Wow, that is kind of alarming. And since COVID, that is so interesting. You said you have a few theories, and I know you're very scientifically based, so it's too early to report the research findings. But what are your opinions or thoughts on the reasons for that?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (13:21 - 18:05)
I think in working with couples, there's a couple of things that I see play out. One is we are in an age of information overload and anxiety overload. We hear so much that is disturbing, and we don't feel like we have any agency in creating change for it. So, the internal stress level just goes up, you know, wars and economy, and things that we dislike that we're out of control with. And we see a general level of stress and anxiety go up for us right now. You know, there's some insecurity in terms of what is the economy really going to do. And all of that, I believe, has an impact on our sexual behavior.
I think, in part, we're wired for that. We think through human history. However long you happen to believe humans have been around, it's a while. For most of that time, we couldn't manage our fertility. So, if a couple engaged in sex, she was going to get pregnant. Well, if I don't have the emotional energy, the bandwidth, the resources to produce a child and to raise them, it makes sense to me that we are wired to not have desire to engage sexually with somebody. We see that especially for women. If stress level goes up, they're not interested. And I think that makes sense. I think it's a wiring in. Why would you want to reproduce if you're living in a stress-filled environment? We need to raise these kids up enough that I have the bandwidth to do another one or we need to have the food resources or whatever is needed. And our brains don't always think through the details of my refrigerator's full. We're fine. It just experiences the stress of what we're in.
Guys are the same way. You tend to have to push guys to a much higher level of stress before it affects their sexual desire. But I watch it almost every day in my office. Guys come in that have lost interest in sex. I look at their lives. I'm like, you're stressed to the max. You're working 60, 70 hours a week. You're not sleeping. You're eating like crap. You're not exercising. Of course you don't have interest. So, living in a culture that has that high level of anxiety and out of control, I think is part of what's going on there. We don't give time to just sit back and relax and realize that we are a blessed people living in a blessed time. We have a lot of resources. We could do this.
I think the other side of it is the impact of, we'll just call it social media, the impact of all of the information we're able to get. And it's curated information. And we only put online the things that we're proud of. So, we put online all of these great images. We look at everybody else's life. And sometimes in the research, we'll talk about monitoring the alternatives. I'm looking at my spouse and I'm looking at them and I'm going, wait, I like what they're doing better than what you're doing. And it creates an overall dissatisfaction that we start to try to make our spouse to be different. And they don't respond well to that. They get defensive and they push back on trying to make us different. And now we've got a power struggle going on and sex doesn't do well in those kinds of settings. Sex doesn't respond well to pressure. Hearts don't respond well to pressure. So, we start to pull away. Then we experience pleasure with you less. And I experience pain and frustration with you more. And when I look over here, it increases that because they're saying this is what it's like for them. That's not what it's like for me. I want that. And I don't know that I can have that with you. So, I want to have sex with you. And it's easier to negotiate pornography. It's easier to negotiate my fantasy stories. It's easier to negotiate something individually than it is to try to negotiate you. And so, the opportunity to experience profound pleasure with our spouse goes down and the frustration goes up and the cycle just continues to spin up. So those would be, they're interrelated, but a couple of ideas that I would have at this point.
Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 20:42)
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That's so insightful. I have a lot of follow-up questions, so I'll try to organize them because I'm thinking of three categories. First, about just pleasing yourself and not working with your spouse and negotiating. Then also desire discrepancy going further into that and social media. Let's start with the first one. When you see the numbers go down of how often couples engage sexually in marriage, you're seeing those numbers go down. Would you say that automatically means that they are just seeking this out themselves with pornography or doing things in secrecy? Would you like to clarify that?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (20:42 - 23:50)
Not necessarily. It is worth asking the question, but I think one of the myths our society has, especially in the church and culture, is that sex is a need. If you're not fulfilling it with me because it's a need, you're getting it someplace. For some people, sex is a strong drive. It's a strong urge. I think it's designed in us that way to draw us to our spouse, to draw us to connecting, but it is not a need. Nobody dies from lack of it. I could line up a whole string of clients that practice sexual fidelity, sexual integrity, and they're not at a place that they can express their sexuality in a way that they believe is honoring, so they don't. Nobody dies. Nobody does poorly, even. Many times, they thrive. The belief that if you're not getting it with me, you're getting it someplace, that may be true, but that's not a foregone assumption.
For some, though, it is. It is something that I want, something that I desire. It meets a lot of my desires. I think sex meets a lot of our needs, a need of acceptance. I do believe that's a need. I think we have a need to be desired, to be pursued. I think those are God-reflective needs in us. God desires those things. I think it's fair to say that those are needs, and we often get those needs met through sex. Even in an altered, hollow way, masturbatory sex can give something towards those needs. It's worth asking, as somebody pursuing that individually. A couple last week, they sat down for the first time and started to talk about that with each other. What do you do? We're only engaging this frequency. What do you do outside of that? They were both surprised at what each other does, and able to step back and say, I'm challenging them to do vision work. What do we want? For one of them, they said, “I don’t want this part of my life. I want it to be only you, but that doesn't always work well. What do we need to do so it can be?” The other is not so sure that they want to give up some of what they're enjoying in their individual time. How do we wrap that in? It's interesting to watch them work through the vision and try to figure out who do they want to be as couples. But to go back to your question, no, it's not a foregone that they're going to be acting out. But it's worth asking, and worth asking, is that what you want? Or are you taking that as a second best because you don't see an opportunity to pursue what's really good? If that's true, can we maybe figure out how for both of us to get what we truly desire?
Laura Dugger: (23:51 - 24:19)
That's so wise. Then to elaborate also on desire discrepancy, you've shared this is your primary research area. Can you expand a little bit on, I won't hit all of these, but you had talked about it being a desire discrepancy with frequency, with the type of activity, and I feel like there was one other topic. In practices. Can you share more about each of those?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (24:20 - 27:48)
Yeah, the primary conflict that comes into my office is often illustrated by frequency. Generally, in most couples, the husband, the male, has a desire for a higher frequency. The female has, her frequency desire tends to be lower. In Secrets of Sex and Marriage, we have all the numbers that play that out. What's interesting is when we test them, they're not as far apart as they believe they are. Actually, in our survey, 22% of couples were wanting the exact same amount. Only 14% or 15% believe that they wanted the same amount, which is a pretty significant difference. Couples are closer together than they think they are. And most of those couples, even when they were different, were only one mark different. She said that she would like to have sex one to two times a week, and he said he would like to have sex two to three times a week. That's one mark different. Most couples were not that different, even when there was one.
Usually what is being expressed there is, I don't know that you desire me as much as I desire you. I desire you in a way that's physically connecting, and you don't seem to. What does that mean about me? What does that mean about am I a desirable person? Would you prefer to have somebody else other than me? Often, underneath that is the fears of, do you choose me? Do you want me? Do you like playing with me? I want a playmate. I want somebody who we can just relax and be together. I want somebody who holds me and nurtures and comforts me, and you don't seem to want to do that. What does that mean about me? The fight about the frequency, but really what's underneath it is a lot of fears.
That comes into the types as well. I want sex that is wild and crazy and spontaneous. I want to be able to walk into the room and you lose your mind. That never happens anymore. I want sex that follows us having long talks where you've cared for my heart and you've nurtured me. We've gone slow and you've really just cherished me. You just want something wild and crazy and to lose your mind. How do we bring those two together? Or practices. I enjoy bringing toys in and playing. You don't like that. You like the one kind that helps you to feel connected. I want to play more. The research on oral sex that we just finished comes into that and how they desire differently around even those practices. So, all of that comes into the office. I'm sure you're hearing at one level it is we're arguing about what I want versus you want. At another level, it's what does that mean? What does it mean to my heart and how do I interpret that you don't want to do this? That comes into play pretty heavily and it's worth couples trying to unpack and figure it out.
Laura Dugger: (27:48 - 28:01)
And would you say that to unpack and figure it out is that most beneficial at a neutral time or what kind of conversation starters would be helpful for them?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (28:04 - 29:54)
Not to advertise, but Secrets of Sex and Marriage was designed, we wrote it, and my heart desire in it was to have a book that couples could sit down and read out loud to each that would start these conversations. So, if they read through a session or a section that talks about one type of sexual behavior to pause and go, I think this author is stupid. Nobody wants that. And to start the conversation about what do each of them like and what do they want as a couple. I think it often takes something outside of them to help get the conversation started. And we always tell couples don't have these conversations around sex. Don't have it in the bed. Have it at the coffee table the next day. Have it in structured working dates. Have it in times that we're going to talk about this. So, we're doing our best to be our best while we're talking about it. Keep those conversations time limited or you run out of energy. Step at it, work on it a bit, then step back, get a break, rethink. So, all of the stuff that we know how to do with difficult conversations in business, we bring those skills in because heart issues are involved and we're not always aware of the heart issues. If I start to get defensive, we need to step away from it because curiosity is the only thing that's going to work here. So yes, structuring it. Most couples struggle to do that on their own. They struggle to do that on finances and parenting, how to manage your mom, let alone something as intimate as sex. So many times they will need a coach or a therapist or somebody just to hold the space for them so they can have that conversation.
Laura Dugger: (29:55 - 30:08)
That's brilliant advice. And I like that kind of step care mentality of getting the book and trying that first. It still is a neutral third party and I think that's a great place to begin.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (30:09 - 30:26)
I love when couples come in and say, well, we read this section and he said, well, that's just stupid. And I look at him like, what do you mean that's stupid? I think that way. And as long as they can stay curious and not critical, those conversations go really well.
Laura Dugger: (30:28 - 30:48)
That's good. Staying curious. Okay. So, then you also mentioned social media. So can you speak more to this demand that people are having to, I guess the way that you've worded it in the past is the demand for fantasy that people see in social media and pornography.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (30:50 - 34:18)
Maybe a stupid example. My wife and I are looking at redoing our master bathroom closet. It's been a lot of years. The first person we had come in and take a look at it went, yeah, this has been here a while. Okay. So yeah, maybe it needs to be redone. And so, what do you do? You start jumping online and looking, well, what are people doing today? What do bathrooms look like? And you start looking at them going, wow, I want that. Well, I can't fit that space into my space. So, do I need different space? And all of a sudden, all of these desires that I have and what I fantasize about living in, what if it's not even possible where I'm at? What do I do with the tension in it? Can I look at what I've got and really appreciate it and work on making it maybe better, but not need to swap it out for something else or not stay in a state of discontent with what I got, even after it's been upgraded and redone.
A stupid little example, I think of what goes on in relationship as we watch a couple and their gorgeous pictures of their vacation or their family pictures of, it looks like this big family with all the grands and they're having so much fun together. And every time my kids get together, we have knockdown drag outs, or two of my kids won't even show up, or the grands act out every time that they're around. And my family isn't the ideal family. My spouse isn't the ideal spouse. Here's a picture of him with his arms wrapped around looking so nurturing. And I don't know that my husband ever does that to me. He's always irritated with me. And we go to, I desire to be pursued. I desire to be chosen. I desire to be nurtured. And I see that in all of these images out there, and I'm not experiencing it. And I increase the fantasy of what I could have, what I desire to have. And I look at you and I think, it's not even possible to have that with you. You're not that kind of person. I'm not sure I picked right. And we're creating something that is really destructive in the process.
When we go back a few hundred years ago, and your spouse was chosen for you, or your spouse was one of only a handful of people that were even options. I got the best of those. This is pretty good. And we're working to make it good. And no, it's not perfect. Nobody expected it to be perfect. I love the song in Fiddler on the Roof, Do You Love Me? My father told us that I'd be lucky if in time, we would fall in love with each other, because they didn't marry for love. And then realizing that over the years, they had developed a rich kind of love. That's a very different experience than we have today, where we want the fantasy right up front. And we never want to step out of the fantasy, because it looks like it's all around us. And I don't know that's necessarily good for us, because the real takes work. I don't want to work. I want you to be who I want you to be without me working.
Laura Dugger: (34:20 - 34:39)
That's so interesting. And that, I guess, pairing social media and phones, which are relatively recent changes, and then COVID, and there's so much curiosity around why have things changed so much sexually for married couples since COVID? But all of these consequent...
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (34:39 - 35:33)
We think in part, it was pushing couples together, because we saw a spike in activity when we first shut things down. I'm blocking on the word that we use for it. But when we first shut things down and lock people up together, we saw an initial spike, and then we saw a drop. And it's that sense of, okay, now you're wearing on me, and I don't know that I want to do this with you. I think some of it was pushing people into the online world. I talk about social media, but it covers all of that online consuming that we do, and the dissatisfaction growing in. So, when you push people together, there's plenty of that talk about that. It doesn't always do real well, unless they're intentional and work at it.
Laura Dugger: (35:34 - 37:26)
Okay, that is interesting. As you say, social media, maybe putting it even with phones, even just the amount of time that people you're giving so much attention to your screen, rather than one another. And it does seem like that was from COVID.
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So, this is kind of a big question, but whether it's thinking of wisdom for married couples, or even the way that they train their children so that they can avoid some of these pitfalls later on when they're adults. So, I'm thinking of the engagement and connection in real life face-to-face versus screens. Do you have any other wisdom that may actually impact them sexually someday?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (37:27 - 40:25)
There are some foods that we don't eat because they're poisonous to us. There are some things we don't take into our brains because they're toxic to us. Yeah, we do. We learn to stay totally away from those. But yeah, I was thinking more the experiences that I have of even a spouse saying, “you can't have access to anything because I'm so angry at you.” I don't know if that's helpful.
Laura Dugger: (40:26 - 40:56)
I see what you're saying. Appreciate the heart behind that, not controlling them and also taking the responsibility of self-discipline. So, there's another topic that many married couples may want to know more about, but they don't know where a safe place is to go and ask. So, this is the topic of oral sex. And so, Dr. Mike, can you share first what the Bible has to say about oral sex, but also share with us some of the research findings?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (40:57 - 52:46)
Okay. So, we've got three more hours, right? So, if we tried to collapse it down a little bit, this comes a bit out of just working with it for so many years. We do the couples' workshops. We always do an Ask Dr. Mike. And so, through the entire workshop, today's technology, we used to use three by five cards, but today's technology, they can anonymously send a message in to me. And we take an hour of workshop and just go through those and answer them. And I am always going to get several on the subject. So, it's just been something that we know couples want to know about. Because it is a desire discrepancy, it is of interest to me. And so, we rolled questions about it into our last survey, the Marital Intimacy Project, where we surveyed 501 married couples, and a nationally representative sample. So, these weren't Christian couples, they weren't non-Christian couples, they weren't. The sample represents the 2018 U.S. Census data for the United States. So, in racial mix, racial ethnic mix, and religious mix and age, where they're at in the country. So, this is what these married couples are telling us about. So that's the background that some of this embeds in.
And your first question is, what does scripture say about it? Well, that depends on who you ask. You know, if we go back through most of church history, the purpose for sex was procreation. And anything that wasn't procreative act was considered outside of the boundary of God, because sex was about procreation. And many even teaching that once you got to the age that you weren't trying to have kids any longer, you should stop having sex, because the purpose for sex is procreation. And if you're doing it for pleasure, you're risking sin. If you're doing it for connection, you're risking sin. Well, if sex is about procreation, first, foremost, and sometimes only, oral sex is not acceptable, because it's not a potentially procreative act. That's the language that's often used in some of the church history teaching, that it needs to have the potential for procreation. And if it doesn't, then it's sin, it's outside of God's boundary. So, for hundreds of years, we have teaching that says that oral sex is totally unacceptable because it's not procreative.
If you take a perspective that sex is about connection, or sex is about play, sex is about intimacy, and sex is about pleasure, then all of that is re-evaluated. So, we have those theologians that look at Song of Solomon, where he talks about tasting of her garden. Nobody questions what her garden is in the story, the imagery that's used there. But there are those, or the flip side of that, she talks about drinking of his spring. And many theologians would look at that and say, no, no, no, that's not about oral sex. God would never talk about oral sex because that's unacceptable. It's not a procreative act. He is using imagery there to talk about the intensity of the love and the desire. This is strictly a spiritual story. And then others come in and say, yeah, no, I think it's about the physical. God would talk about that because couples do this, and it's playful, and it's fun, and it's good, and it allows them to connect. And the pleasure is not a bad thing. And when he's talking of tasting of her garden, when she's talking of drinking of his spring, they're talking about oral sex and scripture. And God talks about drink deeply, enjoy. And so, the other side of the argument says, for couples that enjoy this, there's nothing wrong in it.
Now, I think we can make a larger argument. Scripture talks about consent. Scripture talks about honoring one another. Scripture talks about desiring for one another. So anytime we step in and we start using demands, that is not scriptural. You know, Christ was profoundly invitational. He was profoundly inviting in who he was. The language I use for it sometimes shocks people. I say Christ was profoundly seductive. He had the ability to woo, to draw, that he can step up to somebody whose generational career is fishing. This is what their family is about. And he walks up and he says, “Hey, come follow me.” And they drop their nets and leave. I mean, who has the ability to do that? And it wasn't a command, you need to do this, or you're going to burn in hell. No, it was a wooing invitation. He had profound ways to look at somebody and point out their sin. Yeah, I know you've been married to what was it, four men already, and the one that you're living with is not, you're not married to him. He calls out her sin in such a way that she leans into the story. You know, how seductive, how invitational. I want to be a fly on the wall of that well, to experience what it was like to listen to him talk. And how did he draw people so well? That's who we want to be in marriage. We want to be the seductive, the person who draws, not the person who commands. So, if we take any of these principles and we start to demand of our spouse, I think that's not scriptural. So, when you ask, what does scripture say? I think it talks about honoring one another, nurturing one another, inviting, if that's something that's pleasing to you.
So, the question was, well, what do couples do? What do they want? And so, we asked all of these couples to, how often do you perform on your spouse? And what would you like? Do you enjoy it? Do you enjoy performing on your spouse? Do you enjoy having it performed on you? And it was really fascinating. You know, there's a lot of numbers that come into it. But the first thing that we learned is this tends to be couple scoring. If one does, the other one likely does. If we move into desire, that's more individual scoring. But if we move into practice, it tends to be couples. So, the couples where both of them said we never do, couples where both of them said we often do or occasionally do, and couples who said we regularly do or always do, those were clubs. The ones where he said, well, I always do. And she says, “I never do.” Those were rare, which was interesting. And then when we had it broken down into a lot of categories, but when we clumped them all together into the never, rarely, occasionally, sometimes, and often, always, we get almost third, third, and third. And so, couples have said in my office, but everybody does it. Actually, no, they don't. The largest group when we had it all broken down were couples that never do. That was the largest group. And the couples that always do was half of the never do. But if we get the larger categories, it's almost a third, third, and third, which says to me, it's perfectly okay, whatever the couple decides. Let's let them decide their comfort, what they enjoy with it, what it means to them. And that's more important than the behavior of it.
Then when we do get into, and I'm looking over here at my numbers, so I get them kind of right. We did not see a huge difference in age. I expected there to be a difference in practice with age. We didn't see a huge difference. And there was no difference in marital satisfaction or in sexual satisfaction between the couples that did and didn't. The only times we saw a difference was when they were what we would call asymmetrical. And those few couples where she said, “I always do”, and he says, “I never do.” Or the other way around. We got asymmetrical, we saw a decrease in marital and sexual satisfaction. But there was no difference in the couples that say we never do and the couples that say we always do. So, it didn't have an impact on sexual satisfaction. It had a bit of an impact on her orgasmic frequency, which that kind of makes sense. But the biggest difference was in desires and how, whether you like to or not.
So, we asked husbands, do you like to have it performed on you? And we asked wives, does he like when you perform on him? And wives have us figured out. The answer is almost identical to us. When we asked husbands, “does your wife enjoy doing this?” And we asked wives, “do you enjoy performing on him?” Husbands really overestimate how much she enjoys this, which was fascinating. Not a surprise, but fascinating. And there was a big difference between what the husband enjoys and performing on him and what the wife enjoys and performing on him. That was a massive difference. And then in the middle of that is performing on her. And they weren't near as far apart there. But once again, husbands overestimated her enjoyment. Wives underestimated his enjoyment, which was interesting. But there wasn't a huge difference. So, if we take the wife enjoying performing on him, husbands enjoying being performed on, those are quite a bit different. And right in the middle was wives saying that they enjoy it and husbands saying they enjoy performing on her. So that was interesting in looking at what they do and don't like.
Now, I haven't broken it down into some of the categories of couples. Yeah, I did look at it in terms of desire types. And there was some big differences there, which we would expect that an initiating type of a desire is going to want more versus a receptive or resistant, a little less. But I haven't broken down some of it even more detailed. Those initial numbers have been fascinating to see. And I think the takeaway is what we started with. What's your vision? What do you want and why? What does it mean to you? Let's decide what you want in your marriage. And then let's take steps to make it healthy and to be good and to move toward it. And it doesn't have to be tomorrow. We can slowly grow to that.
Laura Dugger: (52:47 - 53:09)
That is so interesting. And I'm sure that's so helpful when a majority of people are submitting those kind of questions. Now you have some normative responses. And you also mentioned something in there about the different types of initiation or desire, and one is resistant. So, can you go into all three of those and define that?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (53:10 - 58:20)
Yeah. We have the cultural message that desire is being harmed. And it is. That we feel we wake up and I'm interested in sex or you walk by and I'm interested in sex. I want to have sex. We think of it as spontaneous. It's not actually spontaneous, but we think of it as spontaneous. That's an initiating type of desire where we're aware of the desire before arousal. We pursue the sex for arousal is the experience of it. The second, and for that I've shifted to in the book, we talk about a car and being driving neutral and parking, but I've shifted to talking about in terms of boats, you know, that initiating desire is a speedboat, sometimes a really big engine, sometimes not so big of an engine, but it's powered, it's moving forward. Receptive desire requires arousal before the desire shows up. So, it takes an intentional step to move forward. Yeah, we can do that. And I'm enjoying doing this. Oh, my body's enjoying this too. This is good. And then the desire clicks on. So, desire sometimes may not show up till five to 10 minutes into the sex act. Now I want this, please don't stop, you know, please do it this way. Now the desire is there. That's the receptive desire. And I talk about that as kind of like a sailboat. You know, it's not powered by an engine. It needs an external force to kind of get it moving forward. But I also have to have the sails up. And what does it take for me to have the sails up on my sailboat? And what seduces me, what draws me, what helps me to move towards that desire?
And then resistant is the motor's pulled up out of the water, the sails are tied down, and there's two anchors that are, you know, doesn't matter what you do, I'm not moving. I'm not going to allow anything to move me. Or those anchors are there for a good reason, because of trauma, because of wounds, maybe that you have done. Maybe the relationship is not safe. If I get naked, I'm going to be criticized. I don't care to get naked, whether that be emotionally or physically. So, most of the time when I'm working with somebody who's resistant, the resistance is there for a good reason. And we have to figure out what's going on and how do we get rid of the anchors? Or how do we get this engine started again? And it may be physical, it may be emotional, may be relational, may be spiritual. But the resistance is going to be something has got us locked down in our sexuality, or locked down towards you. I'm still interested in sex, just not with you. And so, we have to kind of unpack that.
I do think that generally requires a third party, a therapist who's skilled in this who can work with it. My concern is even most therapists are defining receptive desires, low desire. And so, if somebody comes in and says, well, I have low desire, and they even if they realize they have receptive desire, all of the interventions are designed to increase initiating desire, rather than help somebody to nurture their type of desire, to nurture the receptive type of desire, or to figure out there's a reason you're resistant. Can we step back and create the space for you to drop the guards to figure out why you're resistant? Because he may be resistant and not even know why. He just, I'm not going to go there. And we have to create the space for him to even sit in it and start to figure it out. Or she may be, same thing for her, she may be resistant, and she might have an idea why, but we haven't unpacked it enough to really figure out what's going on. She just feels like she's broken and is being criticized by her husband. So, to step back and figure out which of those three is really going on, and how do we work with it?
So those types, within those, there are different levels, you know, we'll have an initiating desire that has a really big engine. They want sex all the time. Or an initiating desire that has a smaller engine. They don't want it all that often, but when they do, they're going to pursue it. A receptive desire that has really big sales doesn't take an awful lot to get them moving forward, but it doesn't come from within. And those that, you know, it takes a lot of work to get this thing moving forward. Is there a way we can increase the sales a little bit, so it doesn't take quite so much work internally and to the spouse? So, we're looking at types, we're looking at levels. It gets really complex, which is part of the fun of it, but part of what makes it tough for couples, and they default to the, you're broken, you don't want me, you don't like me. They default to simple answers that don't work. Mm.
Laura Dugger: (58:21 - 58:37)
Okay. So, it sounds like you're saying the goal isn't to get everybody to have the engine, which is maybe where some therapists could direct them in the wrong way, but to grow in the freedom and releasing and get closer to the vision.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (58:38 - 59:38)
I was teaching this to some therapists and one of them came up on break and she says, “okay, I hear all of this, but you've got to be honest that truly the healthy person, when they've done good work, is going to have initiating desire.” If you walk into the therapy office with that, the receptive desire person, you're always internally thinking you're broken, you're immature, you're something, you're not okay. That's wrong. No receptive desire is a legitimate type. We're not trying to get the receptive person to be initiating. That's probably, I suspect that's not how they're wired. So, asking them to be that different, and they'll say, but there was a time that they were, well, yes, but that was a unique season of life where biology was very different. Now they're kind of, they're normative, so.
Laura Dugger: (59:39 - 1:01:06)
That's so great. And that's what I always appreciate. Dr. Mike, you always offer hope for everyone, even the one who's locked down with the anchors. It's a, how can we start to lift those anchors? There's hope that there is change and restoration possible. And I've just loved this conversation. Deuteronomy 30 keeps coming to mind. There are two verses because I feel like you've laid out wisdom for intentionality or the negatives and hazardous results that can come from overindulging, prioritizing, connecting with our phone rather than our spouse. And so, I just want to read these two verses from Deuteronomy 30, it's verses 19 and 20. It says, "This day, I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord, your God, listen to his voice and hold fast to him for the Lord is your life. And he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." So, it's just been such a delight to have this conversation. And I know we could talk all day, but you still have a full day of work to also get back to. So where can we go after this chat to learn more from you?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:01:07 - 1:01:38)
My primary website is intimatemarriage.org. And there are links through that to even get to like my link page that has some of the professional articles. We're putting together some little teaching videos that grab some of this. All of that can be located through intimatemarriage.org. And of course, secretsofsexandmarriage.com is the book website too. There are a lot of resources there.
Laura Dugger: (1:01:39 - 1:01:59)
I highly recommend both of those. So, we'll add the links in the show notes for today's episode. And you're familiar as our most repeated guest that we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, my final question for you today, Dr. Mike, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:01:59 - 1:02:37)
I think it would flow from what you were just reading there in Deuteronomy. What does it take to choose life versus choose death? I can choose death by being passive, by waiting for something to happen. If I'm going to choose life, I'm working on it. So, it goes to what we started with, a vision-based intentionality. Is the savvy sauce, who do I want to be? Who do we want to be? And how do I be intentional and consistently and regularly moving toward that? Not perfect in it, but I know what I'm striving toward and I'm being intentional and taking steps that direction.
Laura Dugger: (1:02:38 - 1:03:07)
So good. And Dr. Mike, just thank you for being a safe place where we can go for these sensitive and sacred topics. I think it's going to be fascinating someday in heaven to hear all of the people saying, “oh yeah, he helped us with our marriage too. And he helped us.” So we've been so enriched because of your work. So, thank you for your investment in your work that impacts people for eternity. And thank you for being my guest.
Dr. Michael Sytsma: (1:03:08 - 1:03:09)
Well, thanks for having me back.
Laura Dugger: (1:03:10 - 1:06:52)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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