Maximize PLEASURE in Marriage by Understanding Your Wife Better: An Interview with Francie Winslow (Episode 294)
*Disclaimer: This topic is not intended for young listeners. Please use discretion.
Proverbs 5:19b NLT “May you always be captivated by her love.”
*Transcription Below*
Francie Winslow is a wife, mom, and intimacy evangelist. Three fun facts about Francie:
NO. 1
I saw a glimpse of Jesus’ heart one day as a 19-year-old, when I sat in a Thai brothel with girls my age. My friend and I bought two girls for the night so we could take them to dinner and shower them with REAL LOVE. It was there that I realized there was nothing more that I wanted than to give God all of me.
NO. 2
I got married when I was 20, after knowing my husband for only 10 months, and dating him for less than 5 months. Total craziness, I know, but so clearly the way God was leading me.
NO. 3
My husband and I have 6 kids, some with special needs and chronic health issues. So yeah, life right now is a bit crazy. But it never lacks for excitement as I learn about the things they really need and how God is working in me as I serve my family in every season.
Follow along with her @franciewinslow
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Questions and Topics We Cover:
As moms, how do we go from “touched out” to “turned on”?
How can we realistically choose to still prioritize connection, right in the middle of the busy?
After diving into this topic for many years, will you share what you have learned about orgasm?
Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned:
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:11)
Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage, while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org slash savvy.
I'm so excited to welcome back my returning guest, Francie Winslow. This conversation is going to be geared a little bit more toward understanding women, but I want you to know it's going to be very beneficial for both husbands and wives. I think husbands are going to appreciate getting a glimpse into how their wife's body works, and how they can love them better and serve them, even in the bedroom, so that they can enjoy a more fulfilling sex life with you as their spouse.
And for wives, I believe you're going to appreciate your feelings or your vague thoughts being put into words, because Francie has this way of articulating big ideas and making them bite-sized and understandable through all of her wisdom. So, not everything will apply to every wife, but I hope that everyone gets to find encouragement and enjoy a deeper sexual connection with your spouse after listening to this message and applying the wisdom.
Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Francie.
Francie Winslow: (2:05 - 2:07) It's so good to be here, thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:20) Well, I'd love to begin with this idea of sharing sparks, because I was so intrigued the first time that I heard you teach on this topic. So, can you just explain more about this concept?
Francie Winslow: (2:22 - 5:56) Sure. Well, I think the idea really just came from this experience that my husband and I have had of knowing that, kind of in movies, it's portrayed that romance is just always fiery and passionate, and then you get married, you have kids, real life sets in, and it's like, hey, what does this actually look like to have a sex drive or to have a sense of passion in your marriage? And just for some context, because I think context helps, I have six kids from 18 down to 7, some pretty significant special needs, autoimmune diseases.
We've got a lot packed into our little home. And so, then you have a marriage that you want to stay on fire, you want to stay growing, but life is full, life is hard. And so, it's just easy to feel like the fire's just gone out.
And my husband and I work really hard on intentionality in our sex life, and we kind of came up with this idea called sparks, because sometimes that's all you have, is like a tiny spark, and that's actually okay. You think about a campfire, really what you need is you just need a spark, and then you just need to blow on it a little bit, and it turns into embers and then can turn into a fire. And so, we talk about rather than like, I've lost my sex drive, or do you have high sex drive or low drive, kind of releasing that concept and the heaviness that can be around that concept and just talk about cultivating sparks.
And a spark is essentially just a bit of desire, a bit of arousal, a bit of attraction, and we can kind of be so busy in our day that we might have a fleeting thought of, oh, it would be nice to be together tonight, and then you just forget about it. But rather than having a fleeting thought or a sensation in your body and letting it pass, we talk about sharing our sparks. And so, we'll, if I have a thought of, hey, I'm thinking about your biceps today, you know, like something playful and fun, and how much I am attracted to you, I'll text it to him or he'll text it to me.
Or if we're in person, we'll share our sparks by, you know, grabbing each other and pulling each other into the pantry for a second, having a little makeout or having a little, you know, quick, playful petting session, and we're just being playful for 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there in the middle of real life. And it's a way to say, hey, I'm bringing my little spark, you're bringing your little spark, and we're doing, honestly, the best we can in the, in the midst of real life in the midst of real hard to keep our fire going. And it is amazing the impact that that's had on our marriage, because it's just easy to assume, we're just too tired.
And then days go by weeks go by and, and really roommate, the roommate rut sets in or disconnection or even pain because you begin to miss each other. And it feels hard to get reconnected. So, we've found it to be really beneficial and simple just to say, okay, if I have a fleeting feeling in my body, a little sensation, a little attraction, a little arousal, a little desire, a little flirtatious energy, I'm just gonna express it as quickly or as sincerely as I can in that moment.
Like I said, sometimes it's through text, sometimes it would be a quick phone call, hey, you know, I'm thinking about you tonight, or, you know, playfully, like, what are you wearing, or like a text a little, a little invitation to connection later. And it's those little things that make a really big difference. And I would say the physical things, especially like grabbing each other, hey, we'll say to our kids, mom and dad need to have a quick conversation, like real serious, and then we'll go to the laundry room or go to the pantry.
And it's just those literal 30 second exchanges that are so small that make a really big difference in keeping the fire going in our marriage. And it's super meaningful, especially in these really busy seasons.
Laura Dugger: (5:58 - 6:21) I love that because you've also pointed out, I think, in the past that you don't buy into the whole who has high libido, who has lower drive. Rather, you see it as energy that can be fostered. And also, then just that connection of we have the spark, but then sharing it, it can ignite faster.
So, anything else you'd like to add about?
Francie Winslow: (6:22 - 9:35) Yeah, I think that's good to bring it up. I mean, a spark is like a bit of energy. And if you think about like a spark of fire, like that creates something and a spark of desire in your marriage, or a tiny spark of arousal is sexual energy.
And so, I think of it as how do I grow sexual energy. And that, ironically, has to be a really intentional thing. It has to be like, I think about being with my husband, I actually spend time, maybe even my planner thinking, okay, I'd like to have sex, we'd like to have sex at some point this week, what day would be best where I'd have the most energy or where he would be, you know, not as stressed out because he had a lighter workday or maybe not have to early morning, you think about your week, your time, in terms of energy. And when you think about sexual energy, when we might have the most sexual energy or creating sexual energy.
And so, we've realized that we came to that point of kind of forsaking the high drive and low drive identities, because I think they can become Oh, he's the high, I'm the low, or vice versa. And that can feel heavy. And it can feel like pressure, like I feel ashamed, because I'm low, he feels disappointed, because he's high, whatever it might be.
And that can switch for men and women as well. And rather than seeing it as that, and maybe we've just like, life has beat us up. So, neither of us have a high drive at this point.
And but yet, we still have a very active sex life without that clinging to who's high and who's low, because we're both committed to growing our sexual energy. And so for me, that looks like thinking about being with him, it looks like tuning into my body in a sensuous way, as a tired mom, and that looks like holding my cup of coffee or cup of tea intentionally and like feeling sensation in the everyday moments from wafts of you know, steam coming from my coffee to the sunlight on my face to washing in the shower, I can actually realize that I've had years where I will do the whole shower routine and not feel a thing like I didn't even notice sensation from shampoo or from the loofah or from lotion, I just did it robotically to get through the chore of caring for my body. And I've switched really to think of it as being paying attention to my body paying attention to sensation paying attention to how nice it feels to wash my face with a soap that smells good. And it's those things of going slow and being embodied and paying attention to my body and sensations that does transfer over to help me remember, oh, I want to foster awareness of my body.
And being aware of my body is a way of fostering sexual energy, because I'm thinking about how things feel. And I'm thinking about my body and how it's responding to touch. And then that helps me honestly feel more when my husband touches me.
So, we can talk about that later about the issue of kind of feeling numb in our bodies. But I think that that is a reality for marriage later on is that we can become numb in our sex life, because we're just busy, and we're tired, and things are routine, and we're kind of bored. And so fostering sexual energy, getting out of our heads and into our bodies, thinking about our times together, growing our skills, sexually learning about learning about sex, learning about anatomy, all of those things are ways to grow sexual energy, as well as just the playfulness of the sparks and, you know, pulling each other into the pantry and having a quick makeout session, those kinds of things.
Laura Dugger: (9:36 - 10:53) I love those practical examples. And I think you're right; we should get to numbing or what it feels like maybe later on in marriage. But let's go back to Newlyweds or especially new moms, because just for all of marriage, sexual connection is going to cement us together.
So, of course, the enemy of our soul is going to want to do anything at every stage to make us too busy, too distracted, to have that intimate connection. And many times, new parents have things that make it difficult and challenging to connect. But it's not like it gets any easier, because then other difficulties are going to come in, whether that's raising older children or medical issues that come in or perimenopause and menopause.
So, there are always going to be obstacles. But I want us to be wise, whatever season we're in right now, to cultivate our delight and connection in every season. So, I don't know about you, Francie, but the most common phrase I've heard new moms tell me is, I've had people touching me all day.
I don't want him touching me at night. And I'd love for you to offer us a healthier narrative.
Francie Winslow: (10:54 - 14:47) Yeah. Well, I don't get to speak in person very often because of my commitment to be really invested at home with my kids. But I am speaking a few times this spring to some moms’ groups.
And the theme is from touched out to turned on. So, I just want to affirm, if anybody is feeling that they are for sure not alone. I hear it all the time as well.
And there is this dynamic of I'm so touched out; I don't want to be touched anymore. And the thing I've learned in understanding our bodies, understanding sexuality, and especially female sexuality is that we are not only coming to the table with our bodies and our anatomy, we're coming with our nervous systems. And so there is this thing at play where we have been having stimulation come at us all day through media, through our phones, through needs of others, and we are touched out.
And another word for that would be overstimulated. And so, I would say you're not broken, you're not hopeless, you're overstimulated, and you're exhausted. And it is very hard for a woman to come into a place of arousal or desire from that place of what's probably fight or flight, that feeling of I just can't be touched anymore.
I am so overwhelmed. I feel like this bubbling over of anxiety or a place of like shut down and disconnected, I want to withdraw. And so those are two nervous system states that we often go in when we are overdone, overcooked, too much has been coming at us.
And so, when we're in that place, and we're feeling overstimulated, and like, I don't want to be touched, I would say the invitation is simply to take a minute and realize, oh, I'm not broken. I'm not actually as unavailable, maybe as I think I need to become available to myself for a minute, I need to reset, I need to remember that my body needs rest in order to connect and communicate that rather than it being like, oh, don't touch me, I've been touched out. And it looks like feels like rejection.
It's more of an invitation to care for yourself, knowing that, oh, in order to be available for connection, I need to see it not as another chore, but a place to be nourished and a place to reconnect to my own body. And that sexuality was meant to be a place of nourishment, and care and rejuvenation, not just another need to be meeting. And so, I think that's the other mindset shift is we need a minute to rest, reconnect to our bodies, maybe a shower, maybe a bath, a minute to say, okay, I'm very overstimulated, I do need a second.
And then to see that. And this is a call out to the husbands to like your job is to love your wife so well that she comes out of a sexual experience nourished. And if that's not happening in your marriage, know that that's actually the design of sexuality.
And it might take some communication and work to switch our mindset. Because a lot of times we've been raised with a mindset that maybe X is a man's need. And another thing we have to do as wives, but that's actually a real huge lie.
It's not about a man's need. It's about connection. And it's about nourishment.
And it's about fully giving ourselves to one another and being cared for. And so what amazes me is the power of sexuality, even orgasm release, pleasure to be able to wash out a woman's nervous system and like a bath like oof, I got reset, I got this sense of the rush of the sexual hormones, the serotonin and the oxytocin and this place of deep connection is God's design for us. And so having this flip a mindset of it's not another need I have to meet, but it's actually a nourishing gift to me to get into my body to receive pleasure.
There is a transition I think we need to give ourselves grace for to like, okay, I might want to shower and I might want to get out of my head and back into my body a little bit, but it really was designed to be a gift. And so that's, that's kind of my invitation is for women to receive it as a space that should be nourishing and can be nourishing and actually really healthy for her mind, body and spirit, even in tired seasons.
Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:10) I appreciate what you said there, because you're flipping it from all day, maybe we are receiving very unpleasant touch. But this is a different type of very pleasant touch to be receiving, or we've been giving all day. This is the refilling, nourishing.
And I think if we change our minds first, then our body can follow.
Francie Winslow: (15:10 - 16:10) And there is an element to I think, creating an environment that does feel safe to let go. Because I think if you think about moms, they're giving all day, they've got the babies nearby, the monitors on, you know, the laundry piles huge, like there's all these distractions, and it doesn't actually feel like that safe of an environment to be nourished. And so, I would say even take that into consideration of what would make sexual experiences with your husband feel nourishing to you.
And it might mean a really nice candle is lit or just a few things to change the environment to signal to your nervous system. Oh, yeah, this is a time of nourishment, not just okay, now I've got to switch, you know, here and meet another need. But this is a time to be beautiful.
I would maybe put a noisemaker on for you, you know, to drown out some of the feeling that you're going to be heard, or you might wake up the baby, make sure the door is locked. Just take a minute to feel like you're giving yourself a gift in that time as well. And sometimes that can help to kind of quiet the environment to make it feel like a place where you want to let go and you really want to receive.
Laura Dugger: (16:11 - 16:51) That's good. And the husbands can be so participatory with this, even that they have so much strength and usually more energy and sex gives them energy. So, if they can find creative ways to, I think, separate her as much as possible from mom to lover.
So, I mean, people are aware of these like put if the husband does the bedtime bath routine or can finish the dishes or just do those physically taxing tasks so that she can have that transition time. I think there are just endless ways to be creative. And I'm assuming husbands would be so motivated to love and serve their wife that way.
Francie Winslow: (16:52 - 17:08) Yeah, yeah, I think it's definitely a reality to think, okay, what does it look like for us both to step forward and really love each other? Well, and that will just probably be different for every couple but being able to know that you can use your voice and say that, hey, I really want to connect this would help me.
Laura Dugger: (17:09 - 17:25) That's good. So, we've addressed that obstacle then of physical touch. But let's also talk about the constant noise in our minds as women.
So, how can we move from getting stuck in our head to waking up our body?
Francie Winslow: (17:26 - 21:44) Yeah, well, I mentioned it a little bit earlier. But I'll know for for me, I feel if I'm not very purposeful in the way that I take in technology and take in my phone, I can easily just live in a state of perpetual kind of humming anxiety, and not really know why. I mean, apart from like the parts of life that are really hard, and paying attention to, okay, what am I allowing in?
What am I allowing to have access to me? What am I meditating on? How much white space?
Am I giving my heart or am I like listening to a podcast 24 hours a day, or, you know, constantly having stuff in versus creating space for quiet in my body. And in my heart, just even to hear myself breathe, or to sit with some instrumental music and just be for a and not be performing or producing or consuming something. That's been a big thing for my nervous system, honestly, in that context.
But I think the other thing that I mentioned earlier was our five senses. And I talked to women all the time who say I'm struggling with pleasure, I'm struggling with orgasm, I don't feel a whole lot. And there's a couple reasons we don't.
But one of the reasons is we live so much in our head, with all the things we have to think about our to do list that never ends the and I think the part of having a phone is that the Instacart is there, the Amazon is there, the emails from the school are there, it's just always something that we need to be thinking about or processing. And that can cause us to live so much in our heads that we kind of live from our, our head up our neck up, and we neglect the fact that we have an entire body. And so I often be reminding myself, get out of your head and into your body feel, feel even just like your belly exhaling when you breathe, like that's so small, but if you can slow down enough to take five slow deep breaths, you'll feel your heart rate go down, you'll feel the sense of awareness even of God's presence of the sense that He's with you the sense that you know, you can navigate whatever you need to with peace. And so, I do a lot of things like take a walk without my phone. I'll sit on my back porch even just to sit in the sun for a minute to let the sun on my body and I'm always aware at this point, I want to feel things in my body because God gave us five senses to be present to the moment to be present to our kids to be present to Him.
There's that classic book, Brother Lawrence, the practice of the presence of God. And it's this practicing awareness of God's nearness. And it's a practice.
And not to make a leap that makes two people, people feel too uncomfortable, but to practice pleasure is a thing to get out of your head and into the sense of awareness in your day of sensation, a beauty of love of the presence of your kids, their smiles, their faces, and then in pleasure to be super aware of the presence of your husband, of your own self with him of the love that you're having of the feelings you're having in your body.
And the noise that comes at us all day basically robs us of that awareness. And so, I think that the world's system of operating right now is maybe intentionally unintentionally, I'm not sure, bent on making us numb to God, to each other, to ourselves, to our souls, and to true genuine connection. And so, I think it's a real fight for me to live connected to myself, to God, to others.
And what does it look like to really be present? And that's actually such a unique key to pleasure, to sexual pleasure that we wouldn't necessarily connect. We would think it's about like, oh, tips or positions, but it's actually about becoming present.
And the noise coming at us tries to rob us of that presence, that awareness. And so, I think it's a very integrated conversation, whether it's talking about spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy, obviously friendship, wherever we're trying to connect with someone or God, but the call is to be present and embodied. And that's what Jesus was.
He was an embodiment of God. And He came to actually connect in a genuine face-to-face way. And yeah, so I think of when I think of the noise of my phone, the noise coming at us all the time, it's just draining of my energy, of my sexual energy, of my emotional energy, on all the levels.
And it's constantly a reminder of God saying, “that's not your design. Your design was connection and presence and how that hits all the markers in all the relationships.”
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Getting out of our mind, getting into our body, how you said paying attention to your coffee and those five senses outside the bedroom, then when you're inside the bedroom, I remember Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner just saying, thank God for every tingly feeling that you get. I think you're more aware of your body in those times of intimate connection if you're practicing that outside of it, which is what you're advising. I guess one other super practical tip, I love it that a friend years ago told me the way she transitioned from work into sexual connection with her husband, they invested in a massage table. She would get 20 minutes or whatever on the table and he would just relax her head to toe and then they enjoyed that connection so much more.
Francie Winslow: (24:27 - 28:23) Absolutely. Yeah, there's different types of touch. I talk about this in one of my podcasts, but there's therapeutic touch, which is like, “hey, I think I need a foot rub. I just need to relax.”
Then there's nurturing touch. I will walk up a lot of times to my husband and just stand there and that signal of like, just hold me.
I just need to be touched in that way, not groped. I don't even need to be playfully touched. I just need to be secure and held.
Sometimes that's what we need to let go and let our nervous systems calm down. I will say even like a hug for 30 seconds, you can feel your body, hug until you feel yourself let go because you feel yourself soften. Noticing the sensations of, Wyatt and I went on a date the other day and I could feel myself.
I was just noticing the sensations of my body and I'm like, I'm gripping. I'm gripping everything. That's not a great way to go into a date.
Talking through like, okay, what is it that my body is gripping onto? It's so much stress, so much pressure. Then we ended up having a great date, but I was able to name those things like, what is my body needing?
What am I feeling? Where am I now? That just comes from awareness, and it comes from practicing being present to what's happening in my body, in my nervous system and what do I need?
There's therapeutic touch, nurturing touch. There's obviously playful touch like tickling or just being flirtatious. Then there's sexual touch.
There's a wide range of what sexual expression and nice and gentle touch can look like that can open you up. I think getting out of your head and into your body and not being afraid of your body. I think as Christian women, we were raised with a real fear of our bodies and a real fear of pleasure.
I know I was feeling like the word pleasure was even a really dirty word. It wasn't something I should be thinking about. It wasn't something that I had permission to even explore because it had a real sense of negative connotation to it.
God's just really set me free from that because I'm realizing it's my design. There are countless pleasure zones all over my body by his good design, by his orchestration. He made my body.
There's not one part of my body he's ashamed of, and I don't need to be either. Realizing that God did make the female body with way more than double the capacity for pleasure than a male body has. That's a gift for us.
It's a gift for our emotions. It's a gift for our mental health. It's a gift for our creativity.
You said men get more energy from sex, but actually, it's like when a woman really let’s go and she really let’s go because we have a hard time letting go. That doesn't mean crazy. It just really means you turn off your brain, and you really receive.
There is a restart that happens. Usually, creativity does flow because it's the sense of different parts of your brain are reactivated and you are nourished. Sexuality was meant to be a creative act in procreation, but also in energetic movement through your body of what love creates.
Love multiplies. Love grows. Not being afraid of our bodies, not being afraid of feeling, but praising God, like the penner said for every tingle.
I'll say in terms of awareness in the bedroom, if you're having trouble feeling or you're having trouble feeling pleasure or reaching orgasm, there's three tips that I've heard that I really like is breath, breathing in that moment, coming back to your breath because a lot of times we can be intimate and still be in our heads. Our bodies are there, but our minds are somewhere else. We're thinking about the grocery list or thinking about why am I taking so long or is he having fun or do I look not good?
Do I not look good to him? Where our brains are stuck in a lot of different places and getting out of our head back into our body with breath. Slowing down, really conscious, slow breathing, movement, going back and forth, and then vocalization, like using a moan or a hum or a yes.
Those three things are often helping you get back in your body, helping bring your attention back to sensation and can enhance the moment through paying attention in those ways.
Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 28:59) Those are so good. The only one I would add, I'm sure you would incorporate this as well, is prayer. I've heard a wife tell me before that she will pray every time they come together, whether she's praying just in her mind, not even out loud with her husband, but just, Lord, help me experience orgasm or help us to enjoy this time or whatever the prayer is.
You also brought up playful touch then. Can you just unpack why play is so powerful as it relates to our sex life?
Francie Winslow: (29:01 - 30:36) Well, I think that we can get so serious in life and we can get so exhausted and overwhelmed and then sex can become a task, or we just are now stressed about it. For us, quite simply put, playfulness has just been an invitation to revitalize our connection and to remember that we don't have to take things so seriously. I think our playfulness has come through even just like silly text messages.
I say silly, but they're intimate, they're playful, they're between us. Little things that we've done, like you have certain names for certain positions and so you can speak in code and that can be a fun way to connect where nobody else knows what you're talking about, but you're sharing connection. Getting your heart rate up together, things like playing literally, like playing a sport, exercising together, having playful times together outside of the bedroom is so powerful.
Getting your heart rate up together is actually a real libido booster. If you go work out, you just feel this energy together in general or going on a walk, we like to do that. By the time you come back from your walk, if you've walked briskly, you feel this sense of connection and a little bit more drive.
You can even make games like, hey, whenever I wear this necklace, it's me giving you a little bedroom wink. We've done that where we have little signs to each other that, hey, I'm thinking about you, I'm so into you, see this necklace I'm wearing. There's just so many playful ways that you can connect that remind you, oh yeah, we're on each other's teams, we're for each other.
This is not a have to, this is a get to, and this is a special place just for us to really build the connection.
Laura Dugger: (30:37 - 30:52) One step further then with that play and movement, I've heard you talk about for females, nonlinear movement of our body. Can you share about how that, again, outside the bedroom can impact inside the bedroom?
Francie Winslow: (30:52 - 35:31) Yeah. I have a membership community called The Circle, and we talk about this a lot because it's a bit like rewiring, especially Christian women's minds to connect to their bodies in a genuine way. Our culture in general has raised us to not embrace the masculine but requires us to be masculine in a lot of ways, just with how what's required is getting stuff done, standing in line, standing in traffic.
It's very much task-oriented, get stuff done, stay busy. The female design is much more nonlinear. It's much more creative.
It's much more life-giving than just task and just to-do list all day. When we stay in that do, do, do, and go, go, go mode, we lose our ability to flow and to be playful as women. I know when I am in task mode all day, I feel rigid rather than open.
By God's design, the female body itself speaks of curviness. It speaks of receptivity and openness, but sometimes in our structured lives that we lead where we have to get stuff done, we close off that space through stress and through just this response of rigidity and overwhelm. Movement is a great way to loosen up, to open up to access playfulness as a woman.
I've heard people call it nonlinear movement, and I think that's great because literally you don't have to be a good dancer, but it's just begin moving. I've taught in this membership group that I have just practical ways. We practice and we laugh and we talk about how it's going, but it's really creating new neural pathways in our own brains, new habits, new ways of embodying our own selves in our lives that remind us of who we are and help us access a playfulness.
What that looks like for me is I can just be brushing my teeth, and I'll just do figure eights with my hips. That's just nonlinear movement, and it's just a way to move my body and be like, oh, yeah. It's like doing shoulder rolls.
You're like, oh, I didn't know I was so tense. I didn't know I was gripping. I didn't know my posture was all hunched over because I've just been tense all day, and our bodies are holding on to that tension.
Nonlinear movement is playful. It's also a way to release tension. It's also a way to remember, oh, yeah, I'm a woman, and I have hips, and it's fun to move.
I'm not even that great of a dancer. I don't feel super sexy when I move, but then I remember I can be playful, and it kind of unlocks another layer of our sensuality and our beauty and helps us remember that we are lovely and attractive and desirable and not just kind of to-do list on stairways walking around getting stuff done. Nonlinear movement can look like a lot of things.
I've spent my 39th year, I decided on my birthday, I'd been thinking, reading, praying a lot about it, but my 39th year, I decided I'm going to befriend my body this year. I did things that whole year, like nonlinear movement, like just cultivating pleasure in my body in a lot of different ways to really befriend and honor my body and call it good, like God called it, because I had lived for so long kind of at a distance from my body and afraid of my body and afraid of, honestly, femininity in a way because I didn't know how to grid that, and I didn't know what it looked like to be holy and to be integrated, to be holy and to be an alive sexual woman. It just kind of seemed like I needed to shut most of it off, and God's been doing a healing work in me for the last several years, and that's part of it, is just simple things like dancing in my room when nobody's looking, turning on music that doesn't have to have like a certain lyric or notion to it, but I just get to move, and there's something about moving our bodies where we get to really let go of a lot and remember the design that we have for creativity and beauty, and yeah, that's just a fun way to do it, but a little practical is trying figure eights while you're doing your toothbrushing or stirring your spaghetti.
A funny one that makes me laugh and makes everybody laugh when I have them do it is spelling your name with your hips, and so you just realize, oh, oh my gosh, you know, you're moving your hips in all sorts of directions, but by the time you finish, you feel more open, and you feel more alive and awake in your body, and I think, I know I'll speak for me, I feel many days if I'm not intentional very unalive in my body because I just am exhausted, but it's those intentional places of befriending our bodies, paying attention, and honoring our beautiful bodies allows us to enjoy it more, being a woman, being a wife, being present, and it sure does make it a lot more fun to participate in it rather than just feel like life is happening to us all the time.
Laura Dugger: (35:32 - 35:59) Okay, and then speaking of that, life happening to us all the time, we talked about maybe newlyweds or new parents, but as we transition into middle age, maybe we're parenting older children at that point, or we're assisting with aging parents, or facing demands with work or our health. How can we realistically still choose to prioritize connection right in the middle of busy?
Francie Winslow: (35:59 - 36:01) Yeah, you mean with our spouses?
Laura Dugger: (36:02 - 36:02) Yes.
Francie Winslow: (36:02 - 41:05) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it, for us, I'll say it comes from really just seeing it as a priority. It's one of our biggest rocks, you know, like when you have a jar, and you have rocks, and you only have so much room, you have to figure out what are your biggest rocks, and intimacy together is for sure one of our biggest rocks because we see what we've called, I've called forever the ripple effect of sex, that there is a ripple effect that comes from intimacy and connection, I think by God's design, and it's the same with our connection with God, that there is a ripple effect that comes from our connection with God. When we're connected and we're growing with God, other things benefit, right?
We see it in our ability to show up as parents, and at work, we see the ripple effect of intimacy, and I'll say the same thing mirrors in marriage, that there is a profound ripple effect from sexual intimacy specifically, and there's other forms of intimacy in marriage that are really important, but sexual intimacy is the only type of intimacy that is shared in marriage alone, and so you can have deep friendships, and partnerships, and ministry, and prayer teams, and, you know, small group leaders meetings, and you can have growth, and closeness with a lot of types of people and groups, but sexual intimacy is the full giving of yourself, naked, unashamed, fully to another, and it's a real place of vulnerability, and I think as we're aging, as I'm beginning perimenopause, as we have almost, we're launching our first kids into college, we've got a bunch of special needs younger kids, what I'm realizing is I don't just need to have sex because it's good for our marriage, we need it because it's good for us. We really need it for our own nervous systems.
We need it for comfort, and for grief, and for trauma processing, and for the bonding of us together, because we're clinging to each other as seasons change, and as dark seasons are on us, it's almost like this refuge that God has given us, and so I think seeing sexual intimacy as a really deep place of provision, not just, oh, it's something we need to do, like exercising, because it's good for us. It is, but there is a deeper invitation to the meaning, and the power of oneness, and union, which is, again, that reflection of our union with God, and it's a gift for our bodies, our nervous systems, in changing seasons as well.
It's a real place of connection that we need, and so I think in terms of prioritizing it, it's one of our big rocks, and so this point, 20 years in, it's not unusual for us to have intimacy many times every day of the week. I guess I just say that as our marriage is 20 years in, and it's more deep, and more beautiful, and more pleasurable, and more meaningful than ever, and in my changing body, in our tiredness, I feel more confident, and more awake to my body than ever, and I love that, that I feel more confident than I did when I was 20, right? I feel more pleasure, because we know each other more, and we've leaned in to learn each other, and we've wept together, and we've grieved together, and we've gotten lost together, like we've had the highs and the lows, and that's, I think I want to cast that out as vision for young marriages, like it's worth it to keep growing, it's worth it to lean in, it's worth it to know each other, and to continue to press on together, because there's deep riches in that intimacy, and for friends who are in the older years, I'm walking with women right now who've been married 35 years, and they're waking up to their best marriage ever, because they're waking up to their bodies, and they might be 60 years old, but they're finally confronting the shame that's held back, they're finally confronting the lies about pleasure, and about sex being for a man only, and they're realizing that they have an entire body to get to know, and to share in marriage, and it's like a whole new territory that they're encountering, and there's freedom and healing happening, because they've had to have conversations that are hard, but actually unearth things that need to be healed, and I think that's the other bit of sexual intimacy that doesn't often get talked about, is that sexual intimacy is so intimate, it does not occur without the heart being present, and so if hard things come up in sex, it's usually because hard things need to come up, and vulnerability and intimacy requires, intimacy requires vulnerability, and that vulnerability is the space for the hard things to come up, and then in the presence of God, through prayer, through love, you address those, it might be hard, it might be painful, and then there's space to say, hey, let's work through that, let's lean in, let's keep loving each other, find help, and it continues to grow the marriage deeper, and so that's what I've found in our marriage, and with women I'm walking with, is that it's not always an easy uphill, you know, like ascent, but it's highs and lows, but over time, throughout the seasons, prioritizing oneness, prioritizing sexual communication, prioritizing time together, to practice pleasure, getting to know each other, those are the spaces where actually I've seen God do a lot of healing.
Laura Dugger: (41:07 - 42:40) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.
You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax-deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.
Well, and even with you sharing how often you're connecting, that requires saying no to some other, probably sometimes good things, too.
Are there any practical examples you have, again, of what you and Wyatt have not prioritized in order to give this time and space?
Francie Winslow: (42:41 - 45:06) Yeah, I mean, I don't want to put ourselves on a pedestal or sound so radical, but we really try to limit screen time and phones a lot. I would say my husband is very radical with this. He really is never on his phone and makes it a point to not be, and I appreciate that in the way he leads in our family.
I feel like I'm doing stuff that needs to be done on my phone, and I can easily get pulled into scrolling, but that's been a big thing we say no to. We just really don't do that in our beds. We don't bring it into our bedrooms.
We don't, because we just see that it can easily be like it just pulls us away from each other, and so that's kind of a non-thing, which I think is a big culture shifter that phone is not a part of our marriage or our time in the evenings. And yeah, with a lot of kids, we definitely have to prioritize. We do hotel dates quite frequently, which I can't remember if I've talked to you about or not, but that's been a huge gift in busy seasons of parenting.
We scoot away to a local hotel for just a day, not even an overnight. We'll do like a long date, like maybe a four-hour stretch, and what that really gives us in terms of not just quantity, because it's not as much quantity, it's the quality of connection that we found, and being in a hotel room for four hours or so, we really get to let go and focus. And so, I think that that's a big part of it is, oh, it's not just about like checking the box, but it's really letting go together and learning.
And those have been some of the hours we've spent together. It's like learning what feels good, learning how to linger with each other, learning how to go slow and not be rushed, learning how to communicate and learning how to care for one another. We'll do like king treatment or queen treatment, where you spend 20 minutes on one person, and then the other person gets 20 minutes, and you take turns, and it's just this exchange of care that doesn't happen in a busy life.
But we found that sneaking away to do that every couple of weeks has been a real treat to figure out how to prioritize. But yeah, definitely saying no to... And I mean, the truth is, it doesn't take that long to connect.
So, it's not like you have to say no to massive things, but I think it's saying yes to putting your energy towards each other and not spending your energy completely on every other thing except your marriage.
Laura Dugger: (45:07 - 45:25) Okay, well said. And maybe somebody's hearing this and they're not there right now. So, regardless of whatever season of marriage they're in, how can they revive a sex life that's been asleep or has become complacent?
Francie Winslow: (45:25 - 46:44) Yeah. Well, I think if it's a place where you are desiring and you are the one desiring, I think it's saying, hey, I really desire connection. What would it look like if we tried this again, if we leaned in?
And if hopefully there's a sense of, yeah, I miss you too. I miss us too. And if not, it's a space where you can grow in your own understanding of your body, how your body works, and you can continue to learn how your spouse's body works and try to love them even without making a big plan, but just showing up more skills or showing up with more investment at times can communicate, hey, I'm showing up with a little bit more knowledge and I'm enjoying it more.
Because I think when you learn a little bit more, you can receive more, you can be more present. And sometimes just working on you and your mindset can have a trickle-down effect. But I think definitely an invitation to say, hey, we're busy and I value you and I value us and I just want more connection.
What does that look like? Yeah, I think it definitely takes two. It takes two to really grow, to be honest.
And so, I think it can be a place where even that can be a hard conversation that has the potential to unearth, hey, are we too busy? It does require a sense of investment. And sometimes that can require conversations.
Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 46:56) Francie, also, you are a wealth of knowledge. You've studied this topic for years; you've brought it before the Lord. So, what can you share with us that you've learned specifically about orgasm?
Francie Winslow: (46:57 - 50:30) So, orgasm for anybody who is brand new is simply like a fast contraction of your muscles in your pelvic floor and around the nerve endings that are linked to pleasure sensors in your brain. And so, when those contract really fast, it feels like a whoosh or a powerful punch of pleasure, and it brings tingles and contractions, and it feels great. So, people come to me a lot.
They're like, I can't have an orgasm. And so one of the biggest keys to having an orgasm, again, is understanding your body and not expecting your body to work like a man's body, not expecting it to just automatically work by penetration, which is a lot of times what men think is if you just have intercourse, you should have an orgasm. But a woman's body is much more intricate, and she has a clitoral structure kind of hidden behind her external anatomy.
So, you can't see it all, all the time. I do have one here. I have other models, but this is a clitoris.
And so, this is hidden behind your outside vaginal tissues. And so, but this is all pleasure anatomy. And so, your clitoris has over 10,000 nerve endings and that is over double what a man's penis has.
We're maybe afraid to touch our bodies, but this is good in God's design, and it is that the clitoris is stimulated. And so, it can be manually, you can touch it, your husband can touch it. Sometimes before sex, you can have orgasms or even during, definitely during, but that comes with stimulation.
And so I think sometimes women think I just, it should happen automatically, but it happens through blood flow to your tissues, to your whole body really, because your whole body becomes kind of alive with pleasure, but the blood flow allows engorgement of all of this tissue, which allows it to feel better and allows it to feel pleasure. And so, a clitoris, a clitoral orgasm is one type of orgasms, but there's lots of types of orgasms that your body can experience with also a female superpower. And it happens when we're able to let go and we're able to actually feel, which comes back to our earlier conversation of being awake in our bodies and aware of sensation and connected to feeling in our body and connected to awareness.
And so, orgasm is a beautiful gift from God. There's many types of orgasms. Women can have multiple orgasms.
That means can peak over and over and over again, not just once, but the bottom line is when God created, he created male and female, but he created woman last. And it seems like when you look at it metaphorically, that woman is like the exclamation point of beauty and pleasure. She was like the final, yes, she has double the amount of pleasure capacity than a man does.
And I think it's because it delights God that women are fully alive in their bodies. And so, I do have a pleasure masterclass on my website because it took me and wound up and afraid of my own body, but this is God's design and he's not afraid or ashamed of our bodies. And the more we understand how God designed our bodies, the more we can really celebrate his design.
And to me, that's worshipful. And it's honoring to him as our creator, because he made us wonderfully, right? And the Psalm says that my soul knows well, and it's like this catching up.
He made us wonderfully. Do we believe it? And part of is education and understanding that our bodies are good.
So, orgasm is a great gift, definitely one worth exploring and learning.
Laura Dugger: (50:31 - 50:41) It's so wonderful, Francie. And are there any other practical ways that we can maximize pleasure in our marriage, both for husbands or wives?
Francie Winslow: (50:43 - 53:59) Yeah, I think this sounds a little bit silly, but practicing pleasure is a real thing. We often feel like I should just know how to do it. It should just work, but it takes communication and it takes time.
And going back to awareness, it takes us being able to understand our bodies. And so, I know the pinners recommend this as well. It might push some people's buttons, but it's exploring your own body.
You have to know your body to share it well. It's a really awkward and uncomfortable thing to not know what's down there and then supposed to be giving it away to your husband. That's I think a sin against ourselves, to be honest, because we are essentially violating ourselves if we don't even have connection to ourselves.
And then we're trying to give it away and expecting our bodies to express or experience something. We have to be embodied, connected to loving, blessing, and agreeing with the fact that our bodies are good. And that doesn't happen unless we know our bodies.
And so, I would say that the pivotal thing for me and many women, and it might make people feel uncomfortable, is you must know your body. You must experience your body. You must believe it's good.
And in order to be able to share it genuinely without shame, because shame is the biggest pleasure killer. And shame is straight from hell, straight from the enemy in the garden that they were originally naked and unashamed. And in comes the deceiver and the accuser of God's children.
And they suddenly become aware of their nakedness and covered in shame and they start hiding. And so, God has an invitation to us to release shame in our sexuality as we bring our sexuality into his light, into the light of his word, into his presence. And part of that is for me, it was definitely realizing my body is good.
So, spending time with your own body, getting to know what feels good for the sake of being able to share it with your husband is a big breakthrough point for a lot of women. And even confronting like, oh, when I'm alone with my body, I actually feel so much shame. Talk to God about that.
God, do you feel ashamed of my body? Is it a shame that I'm sitting here with my body? Can I look at my body in the mirror and actually say, thank you, God, for this beautiful body?
Can I take a mirror down there and explore my body and have joy rather than shame? And if we can't have joy and if we only have shame, that's okay. That's just an invitation to healing.
And so that's what I mean when I say sexuality is also this invitation to healing because shame is so tightly wound around the conversation and shame is the opposite of what Christ died for. He died that we would be free and that it's not this selfish freedom. It's this life-giving freedom where love can really be shared and expressed.
So, I would say that the number one thing is that women love and know their bodies and then can share them from that place of sharing a gift that they have actually received first. Because until we receive the gift, it's an awkward thing to try to give it away. And I think our husbands are hopefully wanting and willing to learn too.
And so, it can be a joint effort that we learn about our bodies together, that we discover our bodies together, learn how to communicate and learn how to love each other well in a place of joy and care. Because that, I think, is a beautiful space of worship to God.
Laura Dugger: (54:01 - 54:43) And just to echo what you said, I think it was Dr. Jennifer Kanzen who shared the same sentiment of women, it's really hard to see your private parts. So, get a handheld mirror and look and see what every part is and be aware on your body. I also want to make sure people aren't hearing what you're not saying.
And so, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't hear you saying, be selfish and masturbate to take away time from you and your spouse being together. You're saying, learn your body and your parts so that you and or be together with your spouse while you're doing this so that you can both experience greater pleasure. Is that right?
Francie Winslow: (54:43 - 56:15) Exactly. But what I'm not saying is satisfy yourself apart from your husband and then don't ever connect. Nobody wants that.
That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about building sexual intimacy in your marriage and sexual healing in your journey as a woman who wants to be integrated. And so, yeah, I think there could be a whole conversation on this because it can be a hot button.
And I'm glad you're willing to go there because we need honesty. We need our daughters to be able to have this sort of conversation with us and not feel like there's things that we just need to do in secret. Because I think anything you feel like I have to have this as a secret, that's also like, ah, like, let's talk about it.
And so, what I call self-cultivation is not a secret. And it's something you share with your spouse. And it's something that, hey, I want to get to know my body.
And that's actually in my journey. My husband was like, hey, you need to get to know your body. I bless you to like have some alone time because you're so wound up in shame.
You don't even know. You can't even feel. And so, it really, it was rooted in our experience as him commissioning me basically to befriend my body.
And I think that that's, it's a different paradigm, but I appreciate the many sex therapists who are believers that agree with that menu, that idea of you have to experiment and explore to know how to genuinely articulate what you want rather than just laying there and assuming your husband can read your mind. And so, it's, again, a place of communication and saying, hey, this is where I'm at. Is this okay?
What does this look like for us? And this is my desire is intimacy and connection with you.
Laura Dugger: (56:16 - 56:41) And I love how you are explaining how you invite the Lord into that process for every person to ask him, what do you have for me? What do you want me to learn? What do you want to reveal to me about sex?
And none of us want to miss out on any good gift that he has to offer. So, France, you could continue teaching us and you have so many resources. Can you just share where you would direct us to go online after this chat?
Francie Winslow: (56:42 - 57:19) Sure. Yeah. Well, I have several courses and growth guides on my website.
So, franciewinslow.com and just spaces. If you wanted to have these conversations with your husband or maybe just wanted to grow on your own. And if you're looking for conversations exactly like we're having today, ongoing, I have a community membership group that we meet monthly on zoom to literally have conversations like this that are so life-giving because we're all on a journey and it's fun to be able to talk about places that we've had barriers and how we're growing.
And that's called the circle. So, I have that as well. So, lots of resources and ways to plug in and keep growing.
Laura Dugger: (57:20 - 57:36) Wonderful. We'll add the links in the show notes for today's episode. And Francie, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Francie Winslow: (57:37 - 58:14) Well, it's not that fancy and it's going to sound extremely simple, but it's take a walk without your phone every day. It's part of that awareness and that coming back home to God who is in us with us all the time. And those simple deep breaths, remembering that we have him in us.
And a lot of times it's just that simple reminder of a minute unplugged in God's creation that helps me to kind of come back home to him and recenter to be filled up for all that comes my way. So, I'm a big fan of unplugging. That's so good.
Laura Dugger: (58:14 - 58:42) And it's just always such a joy to get to spend time with you. And God has given you these enormous gifts of teaching and this ability to synthesize knowledge from so many places and then make it beneficial and applicable for all of us as it relates to sexual intimacy in view of what God has for us in marriage. So, thank you, Francie, for sharing all this goodness today and thank you for being my returning guest.
Francie Winslow: (58:42 - 58:43) Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: (58:45 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go.
Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.
But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.
So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much.
He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what he has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place.
I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity.
In Jesus name we pray. Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him.
You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned.
So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone. Say it out loud.
Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process. And finally, be encouraged.
Luke 15:10 says, in the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. The heavens are praising with you for your decision today. And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with.
You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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