Generational Blessing, Stories, and Rhythms: Experiencing God in Everyday Life with Brothers, Mike Blackaby and Daniel Blackaby (Episode 298)
Lamentations 3:25 NLT “The Lord is good to those who depend on him, to those who search for him.”
*Transcription Below*
Mike Blackaby serves as a church planter in Victoria, British Columbia, Canada, where he lives with his wife, Sarah, and their four children. He holds a PhD in Worldview and Apologetics from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is the author of several books and Bible studies including God, Heroes, and Everyday Dragons, Experiencing God in Everyday Life and Straight to the Heart: Communicating the Gospel in an Emotionally Driven Culture. Listen to his sermons.
Daniel Blackaby is the author and co-author of nine books, including Experiencing God in Everyday Life, 7 Steps for Knowing, Doing, and Experiencing the Will of God and God, Heroes, and Everyday Dragons, as well as the imaginative fiction trilogy The Lost City Chronicles. Daniel holds a PhD in Christianity and the Arts and a ThM in Philosophy, Apologetics & Worldview from The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He speaks on cultural engagement, Christianity and the arts, apologetics and reaching the next generation for Christ. He is the founder of The Collision (thecollision.org), a multimedia ministry designed to help Christians thoughtfully and biblically engage with culture and the arts. Daniel is married to Sarah, and they are the parents of twin boys.
Thank you to our sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Questions and Topics We Cover:
How has faith been strategically passed along in your family to the next generation (and how can we do the same?!)
How do your families personally preserve these stories of the generations of faith?
Can you tell us more about Spiritual Markers and share how we can use this practice in our family to disciple our children?
Related Savvy Sauce Episodes:
Brain Science and Spiritual Abundance with Ken Baugh
Theology and Discipleship with Ken Baugh
Gospel Truth for Salvation and Sanctification with Hunter Beless
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:45)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today, over 55 years later, at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman and Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at lemangm.com.
Mike and Daniel Blackaby are my guests for today. They come from a long line of incredible generational faith, and so they're going to share some stories about how they've inherited this rich legacy, and then also inspire us to do the same in our families. They also are authors of this recent resource, Experiencing God in Everyday Life.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Mike and Daniel. Glad to have both of you joining and would you first mind both introducing yourself and share your connection to Dr. Henry Blackaby, and maybe tell a few stories about his life to illustrate how his legacy has helped shape the heart behind this recent study.
Mike Blackaby: (1:46 - 5:00)
Sure. My name is Mike Blackaby. I'm the oldest grandson of Henry, so I'm not gonna say that he loved me the most, but he loved me the longest of all of his grandkids, and I remember we lived close to him for a while, and then far, and then close again, so it was interesting being around him when we were teenagers, and then being around him later on as our own children were being born, sort of two significant times in our lives where we lived close, and I just remember when I was a teenager chatting with him about, what am I gonna do with my life?
What am I gonna do after high school? You know, like what everybody tries to figure out, and his advice was really just, if you follow God one day at a time, then you'll be exactly where you need to be in 10 years. You don't necessarily have to plan out your whole life. God has a plan, and you trust him today, and you'll end up where you need to be tomorrow, and so I've really taken that advice ever since then, and so I was grateful for that, especially at the time when I was trying to figure out, what am I gonna do with my life after high school graduation?
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, I'm Daniel Blackaby, his second oldest grandchild. He would have probably said his favorite. Yes, second oldest, first favorite, and I live down here in Atlanta, Georgia, actually in the same neighborhood that he lived in. I came on to work for the family ministry, so kind of got to overlap with him the last couple years of his life, which was just a blessing to see him up close. Obviously, we grew up around him at various stages, but just kind of see him finish well, and to have both Mike and I have kids.
Our oldest kids are around the same age, and I think one of the memories, I was gonna share the one that Mike just shared, but I think one of the memories that, I don't know, was meaningful for me came near the end, and I actually wasn't even there personally, but the last picture, actually, that was taken of my grandfather before he passed away was actually him with my two, I have twin boys, and my father was gonna be on the road traveling, and he had stopped by, and I was busy doing something, but he took my kids, and they got to spend a bit of time with him, and there's a picture with them kind of by his chair, smiling, and I just sort of had that last moment. I think that's, and then he passed away, I think just a couple days after that, but the last time any of the family got to see him, and for me, it's just such a testimony of his faithfulness. He has his great-grandchildren around him, and being able to be blessed by him, even at the end of his life.
He had the opportunity to travel the world, do amazing things, but I think his, for me, his lasting legacy is just the way that he inspired his family, that he lived in such a way that even his great-grandchildren are inspired by his faith, and want to hear more about his story. So even though I wasn't there, that picture of my two kids sort of representing my family has just been a really meaningful one for me.
Laura Dugger: (5:01 - 5:12)
Such a life well-lived, and I'm so curious, how has faith strategically been passed along in your family from one generation to the next?
Mike Blackaby: (5:14 - 10:41)
Well, the funny thing is, I don't know that it's always been super strategic. In some ways, I think it's been organic. We didn't always maybe do all the things that you would expect a family to do. We didn't sit down at dinner time and have family devotions and stuff. I think we tried it for a while, and it never really took, but for us, when we watched our parents, both our mom and our dad, and aunts and uncles and grandfather, so many people live out their faith, it was just very real for them. There was never this sense of, I'm just doing this, or that they were different behind the scenes than they were when they were in ministry.
We got to see them on stage preaching, but then in the car on a road trip when they're frustrated with us annoying kids in the back, and there was no hypocrisy. It was the same thing, and I think something that's always stood out for me is, so much of our family was in ministry, so not just even in the faith, but in active Christian ministry, and we just never really heard our parents bad talk the church. There was lots of issues. There's always issues, and there's always things that happen, and it didn't mean that they wouldn't call out sin when there was sin, and not that, but this sense of, they always talked positively about God's church and about ministry, and I don't know, I think the more people I talk to, I think maybe that's not super common.
I think sometimes people, maybe especially pastor's kids, get turned off of it all because they see behind the scenes how, oh man, this is not good, and my dad, he served these people, but he kind of hated these people or whatever, and we just never really got that sense. It was very personal. It was very consistent. It was very authentic, and it was very positive, even though our dad and mom dealt with issues in ministry, and people are messy, right? You're gonna deal with that anywhere, but they're like, the church is God's plan A, and there is no plan B, and so my whole life, I've tried to be very, very slow to criticize the church in general.
A lot of people love to do that. I'm very slow to criticize something that God loves and Christ died for. It's not perfect, and there's issues that need to be pointed out for sure, but we just had a very positive example, I think, growing up, and so for myself at least, I was fearful of stepping into ministry because I was like, I can't preach. I can't get up in front of people, that sort of thing, but I also saw it as a great privilege. I didn't want to do it, but it wasn't because it was a bad thing to do. It was almost because it was such a good thing to do, and I didn't feel like I could or I was worthy of it or whatever, but just a very positive example, and the more people I talked to, the more rare that seems to be the case of people growing up in ministry families.
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, I think too, like Mike said, it wasn't necessarily always strategic as far as super scheduled, or we do this at this day, but I do think strategic is to build on what Mike said as far as just the mindset. Like our family was always very intentional, not just about not bad talking and being negative, but to celebrate where God has done things, like very much a value on just telling the stories of what God has done, either currently of just, hey, this happened today, or else just sharing stories of, hey, have I ever told you the story about your grandpa when he did this, or what God has done in the past, to the point that even like my kids who were, wouldn't have been born until decades and decades after those stories, and never even probably heard them firsthand from my grandfather, or even the generations before their great-great grandfather, know a lot of these stories because they were just, we would tell them, we would share them, we'd celebrate the things that God has done in the past, the things God has done in the present, so I think maybe not strategic as far as, okay, this is our Bible time now, from whatever, 10 to 10:30, but I think very strategic as far as just, we are going to celebrate what God has done, and sort of cultivate a posture of always looking for God's activity, and then not taking it for granted that everyone just sort of knows that, like making sure our whole family knows, this is a God thing, let's talk about it, and so in some ways, I think we probably had more spiritual conversations than we would have, had we sort of been more structured in our Bible study time, because it was very natural to say, when God does something, let's talk about it, and I think for both Mike and I, that's something we've tried to do with our own kids now as they're getting older, is just make sure you, to seize those opportunities to just celebrate when God does, you know, is faithful in our life, and not take it for granted that, you know, ourselves or our kids or families are just going to naturally sort of recognize that as God's faithfulness.
Laura Dugger: (10:43 - 11:34)
Okay, that's huge, what you both are saying, because that is very biblical to pass along to the next generation through our words, through sharing the stories of God's goodness, I don't know how many verses there are that encourage us to do that, and it helps us remember, I think, reading and writing and even conversation that can all go together, so I was struck with all the stories that were included, that you recounted so well in this Bible study, so two parts, do you write these down like in a journal as they happen, and also it's so interesting to see the two of you being related, and even your background right now, full of books, and so I'm wondering if that was a value in your family, and just how that ties in the love of story and reading.
Mike Blackaby: (11:34 - 19:55)
Yeah, at least I preached a lot of those, because anytime there's a good story, it usually ends up in a sermon, and that's something we both sort of drew from our dad, he's a great storyteller, but just coming out of even what we were just talking about, you know, there's always stories to tell, I don't keep all the details, which is why usually I don't have a ton of the details in the story, it's sort of more the gist, my wife's the detail person, and we joke that she'll tell a story, and it'll take like 10 minutes, because she'll know every, and she loves all the details, and I'll tell the same story in like two minutes, because it's just like, you know, just hit the main points here, but I keep a little, I call it an illustration file, because I use them for preaching, but I think it's good to keep some sort of record, even if it's not all the details, but just the gist.
When we moved to Victoria, I live on Vancouver Island, we planted a church here in Victoria, the west coast of Canada, and it's a hard place to plant a church, and I have a file on my computer that's God's stories from Oak Bay, and it's just whenever we see God do something, I mean God's always at work, but whenever we see something, you know, that really stands out, I'll write that down, and I'm like, I don't want to forget these things, like I want to be able to pass on these stories, and I know I will forget them if I don't write them down, so there's the record of the stories, and then, you know, when we put them in a book, we try to make it interesting, and you know, we try to write it in a compelling way, but we do, at least I do, keep a record of those things, because I don't want to forget those stories. Those are worth passing down, and then when we get an opportunity to write something like this book, it's great because you can draw on these things, and you can say, whenever God does a work in my life, it's never just for me, like it's always part of something bigger, a bigger story of what God's doing, and so I want to pass those along, and if those stories can be encouraging for others, then great.
And one of the differences, I would just add, and then let Daniel go, but one of the differences between this book and the original Experiencing God is that the original Experiencing God has a lot of big God moment stories where you read, you're like, whoa, that's amazing, you're like, these miracle stories, but sometimes we can expect that that's the only way that God ever works, is the burning bush, or the fire from heaven, or these sort of big miracles we see in the Bible, or we read about in grandpa's life, and in this other book, we were very intentional to try and not just put the wow stories in there, there are those, those do happen, but we wanted to put some stories of just, hey, here's how this plays out, and it's not a huge earth-shattering miracle, it's just sometimes just regular life stuff, and most of life is in those moments, and God is in those moments, as well as the big moments, and so a lot of the stories we put in this book were, we actually edited out some of the ones that were a bit more like, whoa, that's cool, because we want people to see that God is in the ordinary stuff as well, and so sometimes those are a bit harder to think of, because the big moments stick in your mind pretty good, but when you're thinking about, what does this look like though in just the day-to-day, you're like, that's not as interesting, but we think hopefully it's even more powerful for people, because they can come to realize, wow, God is at work all around me, even in the ways where I didn't expect to see him, he's in those places too.
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, well, and I'd quickly just say too that, you know, Mike's better at keeping track of stories, my wife and I were just talking the other day, how we regret that we weren't better like when our kids were growing up, and some of those funny things that they did, but I think in some ways that is also the value of just being very intentional about constantly sharing stories, is sort of the old oral tradition of just, you know, you may not remember, but you've told the story, and other people remember, because the funny thing with these books is you'd probably assume that, you know, if it's a personal story from me or Mike, that we were the one that put that story in, that we added, that was our idea, but a lot of times it would actually be, you know, like Mike might, he might not, I might still write the story, but he might add, hey, remember when this happened, and this would be a great illustration of this, and I'll be, oh, I forgot that happened, you know, like, oh yeah, now that I think of it, like, you know, or we'd tell our dad, like, hey, we heard you tell this story, like, why don't you add that here, and so it's sort of that collective memory of, you know, we may, it may jolt our memories, you know, and we learn some new ones.
Like, we wrote a youth version of this book, too, that comes out in the fall that parallels it, but we swapped out a lot of the stories for a bit more youth, youthy, kind of humorous ones, and I learned some stories about Daniel that I actually didn't know, that, like, one story that might be one of the funniest things that I've, like, ever heard is in that book, and so, yeah, it is fun to sort of go back into the archives and even learn some new ones. So, yeah, it is fun to sort of collectively and reminisce, even as we were writing them, but I'll say to you, because you asked us about the storytelling, like, the books, and that that very much is, I think, an application of what we were trying to get at in this book, of just, that was something we saw, like, our dad has a big library, we constantly would come into his office, see him reading a book. I think back, even our mom, when we were quite young, kind of had two rules that, I don't know if you even remember these, Maggie, one was we can always have an apple. At any time of the day, we can, we're always allowed to have an apple, and the second one was that she'll always buy us a book, if we read a book that she bought us, she'll always buy us a new book, so that we can keep reading, which she made that promise before we got quite as, as hooked. She had to sort of back down, when she couldn't keep up with, you know, the credit card couldn't handle. I had a huge stack of Goosebumps books. I think she was, like, hoping to steer us a little bit, like, well, I guess not just any book.
But that was just always a value to them. I mean, I mean, apple, and be healthy, make healthy choices, but the reading of just constantly be stretching yourself, you know, whether that's fiction, and as we got older, more non-fiction as well, mixed in there, different types of literature, but, you know, just any way that, as a family, we can encourage thinking, and storytelling, and, you know, whether, even if they weren't necessarily, you know, faith, Christian books, just stories, learning the power of stories, and a well-told story, and I don't know if you've done that, Mike, that's one of the, we've adopted those rules for my kids, of just, you know, if you're going to read a book, I'll buy you a new book. I want you guys to, and just, I want you guys to see me reading in my library, and just the power of books, and literature, and thinking, hopefully, some of that rubs off.
Mike Blackaby:
Our kids love apples so much, though, that we can't really do the apple rule, because then we would just never have any apples. We just wouldn't have them for lunches. Well, and even today, we're all in a book club together, so with our dad, and with our sister, and our brother-in-law, and our cousin, and so we'll all choose a book that sort of stretches our thinking, and then we'll, they all, most of them all live right by each other, so they'll all meet together, eat Chinese food, and then a couple of us outsiders will zoom in, but that's even still a practice that we have in adulthood, is we'll do a book club together, and we'll read a book, and we'll discuss it, and big, big fans of reading old school books. Daniel's maybe more of a Kindle guy nowadays, too, but, and anything, same with our kids, just, hey, you guys just read anything. It's just good for you.
Laura Dugger: (19:57 - 20:13)
It is so helpful in, I think, cultivating faith. That's fascinating to hear how different families do it in different ways, and I know that we can't share all of the stories, but now, Mike, you kind of left us hanging. Do you want to share that one story about Daniel that they may find in the youth resource?
Mike Blackaby: (20:15 - 21:52)
Yeah, it might be a little, a little bit PG, Daniel, you may have to correct me, but you were, like, brand new to a school, too, like, your high school. He was a new student at his school, and they all went, they all went out on a lake, going, like, being pulled on a tube behind, behind, like, a speedboat, and so, of course, you're trying to make a good impression. You're, you're brand new. You don't have any friends yet, and so you're trying to, you're trying to break into this crowd, so Daniel goes on that tube, and, of course, you're trying to get you to fall off, and so they're taking these huge corners, and, and they, they wipe Daniel off of the back of that tube so hard that he loses his swim trunks, and he's floating there, and the boat's got to, like, make the big wide turn, and come back, and pick him up, and he looks, and his shorts are, like, you know, he's lost them way out in the lake, and so he's frantically swimming, trying to, trying to get to his shorts before, before the boat comes back, and so, for those of you who are, who are audio listeners only, you'll be thankful for that, I guess. Sorry, I apologize to the listeners, but I forget what point we're making. So, not, not the age you want to be to, to humiliate yourself.
Daniel Blackaby:
I did find, I did swim fast enough, just to tie a bow on that. I was able to be covered. Somehow, I had never known that story, and I've laughed for, I mean, months now, I guess, whenever, whenever you wrote that. I'm still laughing about that.
Laura Dugger: (21:53 - 23:29)
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Kind of getting back to some of the thoughts of your study, why is it that you think so many Christians struggle to meet God just in the ordinary moments of life?
Mike Blackaby: (23:31 - 29:40)
I think one reason might just be that our ordinary time is so full of distractions now, just so much more than it ever used to be, and everybody knows this, like with phones and just ads coming at you all the time, and constant noise, constant stimulus, and just being as busy. Technology has also allowed us to be very productive, which doesn't mean that we rest more. It means that we attempt to do more because we can do more, and so our lives are just full and busy, and I would say that probably one of the biggest reasons why we don't see God in the everyday is because our every day is so full of distractions, and if we're not intentional, just there's a million things that will come and take our attention and fill our time, and so that would be, I think that would be a big reason is life's just too crazy, and unless you push back against that intentionally, there's just so much that you'll miss out on.
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, I think too, just expectations. I think it's easier, maybe it's more flashy to see God in like a burning bush type moment of, oh that must be God, because that's a miracle that never happens, as opposed to just in the daily grind of life, and I think we're just we're sort of stuck in a worldly perspective. I know like our grandfather in the first Experiencing God book talked about God's activity is always God-sized, which is true, there always is that God eternal dimension, but I think even as we've, you know, the decades since that book and being able to go through that study with people, and we're so conditioned I think to think, well God's size must be big, you know, God's big, so whatever he does must be big and spectacular, which is not what our grandfather meant, you know, God's size just means God is in it, and the significance comes because God's in it, not because it's flashy, or it was in front of a lot of people, or you know, it was some miraculous story, and I think a lot of times we just miss the ordinary, because we're not looking for it, we're kind of looking, we may even get discouraged that God's not doing anything in my life right now, because there hasn't been a big moment, and if our spiritual eyes were open to just, well God was all around you in your family today, God is all around you at work today, or you know, that conversation you had at the grocery store, this, you know, that sense of peace you had when, you know, your schedule went crazy, and it was a chaotic day, but somehow you had this, those are all God moments, that's God's presence too, but we don't always recognize that, just because we're not looking for it, we don't, that's almost too small for God in our eyes, which I think says more about us than it does about God.
I know even just in the process of writing this book, it was sort of the act of trying to apply it into my own life, of you know, just being more intentional about, you know, if I'm just like in the living room with my kids, or doing, you know, whatever I'm doing at work or something, and just sort of sitting back a bit and being, this is a good moment, like this is a God moment, like this is, you know, my kids are laughing, this happened, there was a breakthrough at work, you know, some small comment that maybe I would brush off, that no, that actually is a sign of God's activity, and I think once you get in the habit of that, once that becomes sort of, you know, not that you're trying to like, where's Waldo, and force it if it's not there, and make everything a God moment, but if you just sort of get in the habit of keeping your eyes open and recognizing it, I don't know, it's sort of contagious, if you start noticing more and more, and you get in, you sort of, that becomes more of your default, and the more you do that, the more you realize, so God's been doing a lot of stuff that I've been missing, just because my own expectations are, I want God to do something that, in my eyes, seems more miraculous and spectacular, when maybe God wants to do something just as important, but way more intimate, or personal, or sort of, you know, behind the scenes.
Mike Blackaby:
And something that's come up a couple times in our conversation is just the consistency and the practice of something, like Daniel said, if you put that into practice, it may not feel natural at first, but if you put that into practice, Daniel just said like, that'll become more your default, and even the language we use in the book, and other people use as well, is just the rhythm of your life. What is your life rhythm? What is those defaults that you fall into, either unintentionally or intentionally?
And if you, you have to create the rhythm of looking for God's activity, and I think that's one thing the original Experiencing God did, is it opened people's eyes to, God is at work all around me, and if I'm gonna see that, if I'm gonna recognize that, then I need to be looking for that. It's not that it starts happening because I start looking, but I start seeing it because I start looking. It's always been there. And so just building that consistency, and those rhythms, and one of the things we really hit on in the book is, you are shaped by what you do consistently over time. And it's interesting, because the big moments maybe inspire you, but they don't necessarily shape you into who you are. It's the erosion of rock. It's the consistent small things that build up over time that really shape your character and shape your faith. And so, the big moments play a part in that, but just like anything else, if you want seeing God's activity to become the default rhythm of your life, it's one of those things that you have to put into practice, because it's not going to be naturally what you do, just right off the bat. It's one of those things that has to be learned and practiced. But as you do, it slowly does become second-rate, and it does become more of the default. And you are just aware of looking around for where God is at work and recognizing it, but it's not going to just happen by accident, because very rarely do good, healthy things happen just unintentionally and by accident. Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: (29:42 - 30:22)
And there's this verse that's been meaningful all year, but it's one that I was, again, reflecting on today from Lamentations 3:25, and it kind of ties into what you're talking about. It says, "The Lord is good to those who depend on Him, to those who search for Him." And I think you're talking about cultivating those small incremental steps of spiritual growth by even just searching for Him and being on the lookout and expectantly awaiting for Him to do something. So, would you build on that and share a few more practical habits that we can cultivate to experience progressive sanctification?
Daniel Blackaby: (30:25 - 37:43)
Yeah, well, I know, because in the book, each unit, we give different suggested habits that contribute to that rhythm of intentionality. And obviously, we start the book with sort of the standard, you know, read your Bible, pray, things that every Christian should, that should just be a part of your rhythm at any stage of life. But I think a lot of times when we think of habits and things, I think people get intimidated because we're busy, and obviously, it's a matter of priority. We make time for the things that we love and prioritize. So, most of the time, busyness is an excuse to prioritize, you know, watching Netflix or going to bed early or whatever it is instead of God things.
But I think one of the things we try to do in the book, too, is just redeeming the time of, you know, that they're not necessarily that you need to, okay, well, I have a busy life, and I got to add 10 new habits into my life, and slot them into whatever remaining, you know, openings I have in my busy schedule, but just kind of reclaiming some of these times or, you know, and a lot of the habits, too, they're not necessarily just, you know, go spend two hours fasting and prayer before work every day, things that are that are daunting. I think a lot of them can be small, just mindset things. I know one of our habits is just gratitude, where we encourage people, like if you're standing there by the coffee maker half asleep, you know, in the morning before you're going to go to work or school or whatever you're doing, like if you're just standing there waiting for your coffee, you got whatever, two minutes, you know, use that moment to voice a prayer to God and just thank Him. Find one thing that you can thank Him for that day, and that's not adding, you know, that's not adding a lot of commitment, but it's starting your day, you know, one of the first things you do is, before you even had coffee, is thanking God for something, and you do that every day, every day, you start every day thanking God for something, then that begins to shape your rhythm, to grow you into being a more thankful person.
Rather than, you know, spending that time to think about how much you don't want to go back to work this morning, or you're too tired, or you know, regretting that you stayed up too late, or, you know, you feel sore from how you slept on your pillow, like things that could sort of shape our day, and I mean, the book has a lot of those sort of things, even just commutes, you know, we encourage people, pick one day, just, you know, one day, if you're going to work or picking up your kids from school, or whatever your regular commute is, and just turn off the radio, turn off the audiobook, just, you know, you can pray in that time, or you can just look and, you know, appreciate the sky, or you can just have some silence to kind of clear your mind from all the stimuli that you get, you know, so much throughout the day, and so I think, for me, those are the ones that have been the most impactful for me. Obviously, if you're not reading your Bible, or praying, some of those things work to include those, but I think a lot of the habits, especially when it comes to noticing God, and joining God in the small things, can be small habits of just shaping, how can I become a more gratitude, or grateful person, or generous, or encouraging person, you know, encourage one person at work each day, there's different things like that, but I think over time, those do contribute to sort of these bigger rhythms of aligning yourself more with kind of God's presence.
Mike Blackaby:
Yeah, one that I like, that has challenged me and stuck with me is the water basin. It says he went over to this water basin, and he used that to wash his disciples' feet, and of course, the practice would have been for a servant to have done that when they all got there, and maybe a servant already did that, it would seem odd if a certain servant had already done that, and then Jesus repeats it, maybe that's how it happened, but I get a sense that they went in, and nobody had done that, sort of the custom got missed, and they're all sitting there with dirty and disgusting feet, and Jesus is the one that takes the initiative, doesn't just wait for somebody else to do it, we don't hear of any of the other disciples saying, oh, well, somebody's got to do this, sort of like someone's got to do the dishes, I guess I'll go do it, like it's Jesus that does it, there's the sense that the water basin was there the whole time, but Jesus is the only one who took the initiative to use it, and so I would say everything that we want to develop in our character towards Christlikeness is going to come out of the foundation of humility, a posture of humility is where all of that is built on, and so the act of serving others, what it does is it slowly makes us humble, it's the action of putting someone else before myself, if I do that over and over again, eventually that starts to wear down my pride, that actively pushes back against my pride by putting somebody else in front of me, and that's good, if I can work my way down to a place of humility, then that's a great starting place for everything else that God wants to develop in my character, and so one of the practices would be everywhere you go look for the water basin, like every room you walk into, everywhere you go there's going to be an opportunity to serve others, most people are going to ignore it, most people are going to let that water basin sit there and wait for somebody else to do it, cultivate the habit of being that person, of saying everywhere I go I'm going to be the one who starts stacking chairs, I'm going to be the one who starts collecting everyone's dirty dishes, I'm going to be the one who asks if anybody could use a top-up on their water or their coffee, I'm going to be that person, and when I'm at home, it's like where are those moments, if I see that my wife needs something, am I going to wait for her to ask, or am I going to see that as a water basin moment, and I'm going to jump on it, and that's hard for me, that's not natural for me, and so that is something I'm actively for years now just trying to do that, but every time I see a water basin and use it to serve somebody else, I'm pushing back against my natural tendency towards pride, and I'm setting myself up to receive whatever else the Holy Spirit wants to, whatever fruit of the Spirit that needs to be developed in me, comes out of the foundation of humility, and so something like that, it's not a scheduled thing, but it's a mindset, it's a habit of saying, okay, everywhere I go, there's going to be a water basin, and so every room I walk into, I can ask where is that, and then take that opportunity to serve, and over time, that should start to develop humility in you, and that's a great place to be for everything else that God wants to do in your life.
Laura Dugger: (37:43 - 39:07)
I love that picture of the water basin, and I was telling my husband last night, he does this so well to jump to serve others, and it's a quiet form of leadership, but that is one way that he spiritually leads our family, and I was hoping to encourage him last night, I saw it in one of our daughters then as well, and I know that it sadly didn't come from me, but from her witnessing him and just that eagerness to serve, so I think it's contagious as well, these even practices, and the spirit lights the flame, but to fan the flame, you guys talk about some other ideas, I'll just mention a couple more. I love how you said activate the other side, so maybe learn from podcasts or from reading, and that's more of our thinking brain, so to activate the emotional brain, you're talking about listening to worship songs, or vice versa, if you're always going to music, activate the other side, and another personal favorite was reflective journaling, and you just elaborate on all of these practical ideas, and I think it was really helpful, but you also sprinkle in insightful questions and tips throughout the whole study to inspire us to deeper levels of connection with God, so do you mind just sharing a handful of those?
Daniel Blackaby: (39:09 - 48:32)
Yeah, I think just trying to think of it in that terms of all, where, you know, where has God brought me, where do I have to go, and then I'm curious, because we repeat that activity at the end to see if throughout the study, people maybe evaluate themselves differently than they did at the start, but even just questions like, which I believe Mike actually added these ones in the book, but just, you know, list the places that you go to, kind of your weekly schedule, and then how many, what percentage of the people there are believers or not believers, you know, as far as just joining God on mission in your everyday life, I don't think we're always aware of those things, that we assume we believe in missions, we want, we're joining God's activity, but if we actually stop to reflect, is what, you know, I may go, other than maybe like the dentist or something, I may go or the grocery store, and I'll talk to these people, like I could go days without even coming in contact with someone that doesn't share the faith that I do, I mean, Mike is in a more secular surrounding, like I'm down here in the Bible Belt, so it's, you even have to be more intentional to, even like the restaurants, and my dentist is already a Christian, you know, they're playing, I was there yesterday, they were playing worship music, so I get, you do sort of need to be, you know, more, maybe more intentional with that, but I think it starts with just being honest and sort of reflecting on where has God placed me, and how am I, you know, am I joining Him the way that He has called me to, am I around Christians all the time, am I around non-Christians, am I, you know, my community, am I actually being a blessing to my community, am I involved in my community throughout my everyday, you know, weekly schedule, so I think a lot of the activities are just kind of guidance to reflect on sort of where we are in that process, and maybe where God could have us if we were to step out a bit more with faithfulness.
Mike Blackaby:
Yeah, I like that. Some of the questions we asked are, they're not necessarily super profound, but there may be questions that aren't intentionally asked all that often, even something like, how would you define spiritual maturity? You ask somebody, “Do you want to grow in your faith?” They're like, yes, I do. Okay, so what are you growing towards? Like, what's the end goal? And most people will probably say, well, I want to be like Jesus. Well, what do you mean by that? Like, you want to go around casting out demons and, you know, feeding 5,000 people through miracles? Well, I don't know, I mean, I want to reflect his character. Okay, so in what way? What character trait of Jesus do you think? Like, narrow it down. Don't just say, I just want to be like Jesus. Well, like, here's Jesus, and we're all way down here, so that's just like, it's like climbing Everest. It's like, well, yeah, I want to get up there. Okay, so what's your map to get there? I don't know. I don't have one.
And so, this idea of just making it, just zeroing in, okay, the fruit of the Spirit, start there. What's one fruit? Pick one thing. You spend the rest of your life working on that one thing, but it's like, okay, what stands out right away to you? Patience. Yeah, for me, it's patience with my kids and with, you know, everything, traffic. It's just like, okay, man, I need this fruit in my life. Okay, so start there. Don't try to just become like Jesus. Say, here's one thing about Jesus that I need to cultivate in me. And if I become a more patient person, then I'm actually becoming a more spiritually mature person, because there's a certain part of my life that is aligning more with the character and the person of who Christ is, who is our model. That is the blueprint of who we desire to be like.
And so sometimes the questions we ask, they're not necessarily super deep or profound, but maybe they're just hopefully helping people to focus it a little bit and to say, okay, we all want to be spiritually mature, but none of us really have a plan to get there. We just sort of hope it happens, like Daniel said, over time. If I'm a Christian long enough, or if I just also, if I fill my life with enough Christian activities, if I just read enough Christian books, if I go to enough Christian Bible studies, that will just make me into a mature Christian. And there is some truth to that. That stuff does shape you. But I heard a pastor one time say, experience doesn't make you wiser, it makes you older. Evaluated experience makes you wiser. And so just putting in time doing Christian activities without reflecting on them or being intentional about it doesn't necessarily make you a more mature person. It just makes you somebody who's been to a lot of Bible studies.
And in one sense, it can almost be immature to say, okay, I don't actually know how to disciple myself. And so, I show up every time the church offers me something to sign up for, but if they don't offer me something to sign up for, then I actually don't know how to take control of my own discipleship. I don't know what to do. And so, in one sense, ironically, the end goal of this book is to help wean people off of needing these types of books all the time. It's sort of counterproductive. Like, hey, the best thing is less and less people need to buy this book. But this idea of build rhythms into your life, take control of your discipleship. A mature Christian shouldn't be needing to be spoon fed or bottle fed 20 years into their Christian walk by saying, okay, what's the next thing that I need to read? After 20 years, Jesus had his disciples for three years, and then he made them the leaders of the church. It's like after three years, he thrusts them into leadership. And we go for 20 years. And if somebody's not telling us what Bible study to take, we don't know what to do.
There's a sense of, God, would you make me a mature believer, that I can then begin to pass this on to someone else, to a believer that's coming behind me. And slowly, as we progress down this road, we're passing it on to the others coming behind us. And we never stop growing. But there is a sense of, am I still doing the same things 20 years down my Christian road that I did when I started? Or have I grown at all? And what's the evidence? How do you measure spiritual growth to even know that? And so those types of questions, they're not necessarily super deep or profound, but they're questions that we may not ask in our normal everyday lives. And so, I think that's a good starting place just to get people thinking, if I want to grow, what am I growing towards? And then how do I get there? So that's some of the heart behind it.
Laura Dugger: (48:32 - 50:04)
I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities. And we are thrilled with the final product.
So, I hope you check it out. There, you're going to find all of our podcasts now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.
One other tip that we can hit on is another personal favorite, something that you call spiritual markers. So, can you tell us more about this idea of spiritual markers and how can we incorporate these into our own walk with the Lord and discipling our children?
Daniel Blackaby: (50:07 - 54:54)
Yeah, well, I think in some ways this sort of brings us full circle to where we started with as far as just, you know, as you recognize the moments that that you have, you know, very clearly heard from God or experienced God or joined in God's activity and just allowing those, you know, like through the Bible there's, especially in the Old Testament, people are constantly making altars and, you know, God doesn't think we'll stack a bunch of rocks here so when we see the rocks we remember and we can tell our kids about it and this sense that let's do things that remind us of what God has done in the past, not just so that we can sort of, you know, be nostalgic and reminiscent about the good old days, but that as we face challenges today, we can, you know, hey, God was faithful there.
Every time I see, like I know I have a part of my testimony involved, kind of pretty miraculously receiving a letter, a handwritten letter from a friend that God used to answer prayer, and as we're recording this podcast, I can look and like I have that framed, you know, in my office, like every day I see, you know, at my lowest moment, God was there for me and I have physical evidence that God was there for me, that as, you know, as I face new challenges decades and decades later, that, you know, may look nothing like those challenges. I know it's the same God that guided me, that was provided for me, was faithful then. He's still the same God that I can trust today.
So in many ways, I mean, that can be stories, that can be, you know, I'm a big proponent of just getting physical objects or reminders or things that, whether that's like a picture or just, you know, like I have another, when I was working on my dissertation for my PhD and under a lot of stress, my kids were very young, you know, they were born my first semester, so I was very stressed, and I had one of my kids came up one day when I was just really under a lot of pressure and gave me a picture. It's just a bunch of scribbles and some random, like, animal stickers and stamps, and it's just very abstract, modern, impressionist art, but he gave me that and just sort of, you know, on his own initiative and, you know, just to let me know that he, you know, he loved me, and that's so meaningful. I have that also framed, you know, he's embarrassed now, he's 11, and you say, oh man, that's awful, but I keep that in a very prominent place in my, you know, that's not necessarily God's provision, but I think it is God working through my son to remind, just remind me that, you know, God is at work in my family and using my family and my children, and so I have sort of all around me even now, like, there's just things that I've put around me to remind myself that, you know, when I face a challenge today, trust to what God's done in the past, you know, trust those moments that, you know, that I can move forward with that confidence, that I can still trust him today.
Mike Blackaby:
I think that all of that is dead on. I'm a fan of the physical reminders too, like, have, like, that's what they did in the Old Testament, they would, they'd pile rocks together and that would spur on conversations specifically with the next generation, and so, yeah, I think tell the stories to everybody, but be even more intentional to tell the stories to the generation coming behind you, and if you need reminders of those things, then, yeah, fill your home, don't just clutter up your home, but fill your life with reminders of God's goodness, because no matter how good he's been in the past, it's easy to forget that when you're right in the storm today, and so sometimes you just need that reminder, say, okay, like, I remember feeling this way before, and yet God got me through it that time, and I believe he'll get me through it this time too, and not even just the hard times, but recognize and be quick to give God credit for the good things, and just, you know, remember those, we're in a good, we're in a good season in our church right now after some difficult, just hard work, and we're seeing some harvest, and we're seeing some good things, and I know there's ups and downs in ministry, and so I've been telling people I'm just enjoying the up right now, you know, and probably should memorialize it in some way to also look back and say, hey, when things get rough, it doesn't usually stay there forever, and things are good, it doesn't always stay there forever either, you know, growth happens through struggle and tension and those types of things, not ease, and so, yeah, the physical reminders are good.
Laura Dugger: (54:56 - 55:12)
And we didn't even get to touch on something, you're bringing out the seasons of life and how God brings the harvest and those winter seasons and how it's cyclical, so if all of this message is resonating with someone, where can we go after this chat to learn more from the two of you?
Mike Blackaby: (55:14 - 57:32)
Most of, I'm not super active on social media anymore, I probably should be, but I would say most of anything worth hearing that I have to say, I put in my sermons, and so if anybody ever wants to just tune in, we've got a live stream at our church where whatever God is currently teaching me usually ends up in my teaching just week to week on Sundays, and so I would say commit to your own church, let your pastor be your pastor, but if you're ever interested in maybe gaining some other perspective or, you know, looking for something to listen to on the way to work, our church has a live stream that you can go to, Canvas Oak Bay is what our church is called, so anything profound that I have to say will at some point end up in there.
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, I think you can, for me, you can, I mean, blackaby.org, I work for the ministry, and a lot of the stuff that, I mean, Mike or I, or our father, or other relatives, or things related to this book, I gather resources, and you can find a lot of information and resources on the website, and one of the things I personally do is I run a kind of a culture engagement ministry, The Collision, if anyone wants to check out TheCollision.org, do a lot of, in some ways, applying the message of this book, just in the field of kind of the arts and pop culture, you know, in movies, you know, finding where's God at work, or what's the conversations happening in culture through, you know, the trends, and the stories, and things that are happening, and just trying to guide people to join those conversations, so if that sounds like something, or if you have kids, and you want to help, you know, guide them through some of those conversations, love to have you guys check out our website there, too.
Mike Blackaby:
Yeah, I also recommend TheCollision.org, it's good, I love reading Daniel's movie reviews, and it's unlike other things that are out there, what he sees in culture is really good, helping people navigate as a Christian exile, navigating through this world, it's really good, and so I encourage people to check that out, too.
Laura Dugger: (57:33 - 57:54)
Thank you for those wonderful recommendations, we'll add links to all of that in the show notes for today's episode, and the two of you may already be familiar, we're called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge, and so as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Mike Blackaby: (57:57 - 1:00:59)
Do or do not, there is no try. I would say, this is, I heard somebody say this years ago, and I've always loved it, they said, nothing good happens after 11 p.m., so put away your phone, turn off the TV, you're not going to do anything typically that grows your faith, or encourages your soul, after 11 o'clock, just go to bed, I mean, not much of good typically ever happens late at night, and so, I mean, I know someone will say, well, no, at midnight, this great thing happened to me, like, yeah, I know, it's not a, it's more of a proverb than anything, it's a, typically, this is what, typically, good things don't happen after 11 o'clock, and so, build the habit of putting your phone away, and getting off screen time, getting off your computer, any of that sort of stuff, don't go late into the night on any of that stuff, because typically, healthy things don't happen.
Daniel Blackaby:
Yeah, but my two kids had their first sleepover last night at our house, and so I think they learned firsthand that staying up super late, I don't know, there's a lot of chaos, I don't know what was good that came out of that, but I think, maybe for me, kind of a motto, and I've sort of phrased it different ways over the years, but something that I've really tried to use when faced with decisions, is just to, like, choose what I want most, instead of what I want now, and I feel like most healthy decisions can be summed up in this, what I want now is to eat this, you know, donut that was left on the counter, or eat, you know, potato chips for breakfast, or whatever, like, what I want most, though, is to be a healthy example for my kids, or to feel good, or, you know, what I want now might be to just veg on the couch on my phone, and just do nothing, like, what I want most is to, you know, be well-read, or to be, you know, in good shape, so I should go for a run, or whatever it is, like, just, and I'm not, I don't always make the right choice in that, but that, for me, that's just been a helpful of, you know, most decisions come down to, like, this is what I want, but what I want most, and what would be the decision that gets me closer to that, rather than just sort of feeding my kind of carnal impulses, which usually are very rarely edifying, or healthy to the spirit, or body, or mind, or anything, so I've put that on, you know, like, if I make a running schedule, or different things, I've sort of put that, some version of that slogan, just to remind myself, like, even this, you know, I once printed off a sign, I put it on our pantry, of just remembering, what do you want most, what do you want now, like, because don't, you know, don't go for that snack shelf now, but so, for me, that's just been one of those things that I've tried to, I'm constantly telling myself, just, you know, choose what I want most, not just what I want now. That's good.
Laura Dugger: (1:01:00 - 1:01:30)
I love it. You both have just shared profound wisdom and insight today. I'm so grateful for your generosity of time, and just inspiring all of us, even giving hope, and all of that through this uplifting conversation, where we're getting to see the thousand generations blessed through the faithfulness, even of those who have gone before you, and you two also carrying the torch on. So, thank you so much for everything you shared today, and thank you, Daniel and Mike, for being my guests today.
Mike Blackaby and Daniel Blackaby: (1:01:31 - 1:01:32)
Thanks so much for having us.
Laura Dugger: (1:01:33 - 1:05:16)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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