Embracing a Robust Life: Charlotte Mason Approach with Nicole Williams, Special Patreon Release
Psalm 24:1 (NIV) The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it;
*Transcription Below*
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
Will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, "Education is the science of relations?"
What are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather?
What potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?
Nicole Williams home educated her three children using Charlotte Mason’s principles and methods for 18 years. She also taught four of her adopted siblings from middle school through graduation. Watching the feast of life-giving ideas restore her sibling’s innate love of learning inspired her to dig deeper into Mason’s philosophy of education and then to share her experiences with others. She does that now by co-hosting the podcast A Delectable Education, writing for SabbathMoodHomeschool.com, and teaching workshops. She is also the author of Living Science Study Guides, where she helps families and schools implement Charlotte Mason’s natural way of teaching science. Nicole enjoys working in her garden, collecting living books, and hiking.
A Delectable Education Podcast
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:08)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:54) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
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This is part two of our Charlotte Mason-inspired miniseries. Emily Kaiser was the first guest to lay the foundation, and Nicole Williams is going to follow up today with more practical ideas for how we can implement this method into our own family lives, regardless of our schooling option. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Nicole.
Nicole Williams: (1:55 - 1:57) Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: (1:57 - 2:04) Well, can you just start us off by sharing a little bit more about your own faith and educational background?
Nicole Williams: (2:06 - 5:28) Yes, I was not raised in a Christian home actually. And neither was my husband. In fact, we had the funniest conversation recently where we were talking about him going to church when he was a kid.
And I said, well, that was really nice of your parents to see value in that. He said, no, they were just trying to get us out of the house and make us into better kids. But they didn't go with them.
So, neither one of us were Christians. And then both of us became believers before we got married. And it has been so fun to watch our children grow up as believers or in a believing home, that that was the atmosphere and how that differed from him and I and our trust in the Lord.
We, you know, both of us really knew he was there, but had no knowledge of him. And so that was really fun to see the difference there. We started homeschooling.
Really, I would say it was really based on fear. We wanted to protect our kids. And that was pretty much the underlying motivation.
And then I had fear of doing it. Can I possibly do this? And when my oldest child, who's four years older than the next one, I have three, when he was just about to start kindergarten, I went by myself and toured a local private school.
And my husband was so funny. He's like, honey, I know you can do this. Give it a try.
And I just am so grateful that I have his support that I always have. I know that that is not the story for a lot of people, that their husbands don't necessarily see the value and what they're trying to do. And so, I've always really appreciated that.
But I went to school and we moved and we moved and I transferred college and transferred college. And then I was pregnant and I went in and said, “What am I close to? How can I just finish this?
And I ended up with a math and science degree, which wasn't really what I was going for. I was really interested in biology. But it's funny how that led to this, that that wasn't really where I was headed.
But then I ended up in the science field. But I didn't learn about Charlotte Mason until my oldest was in third grade. Well, actually, he was just about to start the third grade.
And the box curriculum that I was using came in the mail. And I learned about Charlotte Mason and just all of a sudden that didn't suit anymore. It just fell flat.
This big idea that I was learning about. But at the same time, my mom and dad had had by then adopted nine children. They had two biological children.
And they asked me to homeschool their last three who were in fifth, sixth and seventh grade. So, I told her, well, I'm going to do this new thing. I don't understand what it is.
So, if you're okay with that, then I'll do it. And I think it actually turned out to be a huge blessing to me. And then my two little girls started school a couple years later.
And so, they were homeschooled using Charlotte Mason's methods all the way through school. And my youngest is going to graduate in May.
Laura Dugger: (5:29 - 6:02) Oh, my goodness. That's incredible. You are on the other side; you're going to have so much value to add to each of us who are in the thick of it.
Regardless of our choice of how to school. And in case anyone has missed the recent Savvy Sauce episode with your podcast co-host Emily Kaiser, that's where we laid the foundation for this philosophy. But now to build on that foundation, will you teach us what is meant by Charlotte's quote, education is the science of relations?
Nicole Williams: (6:03 - 10:34) Absolutely. When we give a child, Charlotte Mason called it the broad beast. It's just all these subjects that sometimes in the regular world we think of as extracurricular.
So, she didn't just have history. She wanted them to be learning the history of their own country, the history of their neighboring country, and ancient history all at the same time. They started the ancient history in fifth grade, but they continued this on all the way through.
In science, they were always learning biology, chemistry, physics, and earth science all the way through school, all the way through high school. And how many of us really got that? We usually had to take biology, maybe chemistry, and historic.
That was maxing out our requirements. She wanted them to have this all the way through (Art, art history, music, music history, singing, and folk songs).
There's just all of this stuff. She suggested that when we're giving them this broad beast, we're allowing them to have natural relations with a vast number of things and thought. She said that thought breeds thought.
Children familiar with great thoughts take as naturally to thinking for themselves as the well-nourished body takes to growing. We must bear in mind that growth, intellectual, moral, spiritual, is the sole end of education. And just stopping right there with an aside that how many people, much less children, do we know who can think about the major issues that we're faced with, the major issues in the church, in our country?
It is something that I feel like this whole question and answer, can you pass the test? Can you tell me what I want you to tell me? That is not serving our children and our culture and our country very well.
So, what we don't realize is how interconnected all of the pieces of this kind of a curriculum that she wants us to have this broad feast are. Then Mrs. Wicks, she's somebody who often wrote in kind of a magazine of sorts that went out to the parents of Charlotte Mason's curriculum users. And she said, when we remember that knowledge is truth, we know at once that no part of truth can be omitted without wrecking the whole.
Scripture, history, geography, botany and all the others are actually different facets of the same thing. And the longer we work from these wonderful programs, she means like the assigned to work that Charlotte Mason gave, the more we realize how well balanced they are, how satisfying to the hungry mind, how the subject is dovetail, how difficult it is to teach history only in history time, like the time of day, the lesson, how it will flow over into geography, literature or even into such unexpected channels as arithmetic or botany. So, the idea of the science of relations is actually the culmination of several things. There is this wealth of ideas presented to the child for them to think about.
And then they do their own work of their education, meaning that when we ask them to narrate back about a subject, they're telling us what they got out of it. But they're also kind of telling us how that relates to something else they know. So, these things are tying together.
So that is explained through something Charlotte Mason said she was telling of the small English boy of nine who lived in Japan. And he remarked to his mom, Isn't it fun, mother? All of these things, everything seems to fit into something else.
But Charlotte Mason pointed out the boy had not found out the whole secret. Everything fitted into something within himself. And so, the science of relations is talking about how everything fits into each other.
But we aren't doing it for the student. We're not creating unit studies where we say, oh, this is related to this and it's related to that. So, I'm going to pull those all together for the student.
We are letting those connections happen within themselves. And that helps memory. It helps understanding. It creates a full life.
It creates a person who knows about a lot of things and can relate to a lot of things and talk to a lot of people about whatever that person is interested in.
Laura Dugger: (10:35 - 11:02) And as you're describing this, this sounds so appealing. And like you said, it's a very robust philosophy. And yet I've heard someone say that Charlotte Mason's load was light.
Her burden was light. So, when you explain teaching your children all of these parts in homeschooling, were the lessons short enough that this did not feel overwhelming?
Nicole Williams: (11:03 - 13:16) It really is. And what we find is any time I'm doing a subject and it's too hard for the child, it's too hard for me to get through in the lesson time that she specified, it's too hard for us to understand what we're doing. Usually what I find is that we're doing it wrong.
She gave such bite sized pieces. Like, for instance, chemistry. When I am working out the science study guides that I write, I try to assign the same amount of work that she assigned.
And I'm using different books because I'm trying to use books that are more up to date with the information provided. But I still want them to have the same quality of a living book. But I will even count the words on a page and figure out, OK, if she is assigning six pages a day, there's this many words on a page.
How does that equate to what I'm assigning? What I often find is that a lesson that will be 30 or 40 minutes long, there will be 10 or 15 minutes worth of reading. And the other 15 minutes is allowing time for narrating or discussing the topic.
So sometimes we try to cram so much into our day or into our lesson times that she actually really felt like we should keep it small. These bite size amounts every day or every week. And then our mind is processing that information and working with it.
Some people have done comparisons of what their kids get out of something if they read through a book fast or if they read through it slow. And so much more is gained from reading through it slow, having a time of narration, a time of discussion or using that to write an essay, say, or something like that. So, yeah, it seems like a burden because there's so many things.
But if we get in the habit of doing what she specified, it actually is light. And that switching subjects lightens it, too, because maybe you're doing a math lesson and it's hard and we're challenging ourselves and we're trying to figure out this puzzle. And then the next thing we do is sing a folk song.
You know, it just changes things up and makes us ready for maybe a history lesson after that.
Laura Dugger: (13:17 - 13:29) That's so helpful. And then getting really nitty gritty. Approximately how long would this be for an elementary age student, a junior high student and high schooler?
Nicole Williams: (13:29 - 15:24) Yeah. So, we always hear of Charlotte Mason, her short lessons people talk about. And in form one, which is the grades one through three in those first three years, they had lessons that were between 10 and 20 minutes.
Even their math lesson was only 20 minutes. And the whole point was she was trying to teach them to focus with all their might during that time. So, if we're going to read about history or a history tale is what they would have read at that time.
She wanted them to focus and listen and be able to narrate at the end of that. And if any of us have tried that, it's hard work. So, she was starting with these small amounts.
Then by the time they're in form two. So that's fourth, fifth and sixth grade. So upper elementary. They had longer lessons that went up to 30 minutes. So, the math lesson was 30 minutes at that time. Some of their history lessons were.
And then by the time they're in form three, which is middle school, seventh and eighth and up through high school, they had lessons that were more typically 30 to 40 minutes. So that doesn't seem like a short lesson to us. But the thing that we have to keep in mind is that she was building up their ability to attend closely through those years.
So, when they got up into a 40-minute science lesson in high school, they were supposed to be able to attend and pay close attention during that whole 40-minute lesson. And statistically, we know that that's not something that the adults of our day can do. Numbers have gone from a 30-minute attention span to 20-minutes here just in the last decade or so.
Thanks to social media and the switching that we're doing with our brain. So, what she was requiring of them actually appears to be really long lessons in high school. But we always talk about her short lessons.
Laura Dugger: (15:25 - 15:32) And then in high school, let's say how many of those lessons would you do on average per day?
Nicole Williams: (15:33 - 17:32) I would say six or eight lessons a day, but some of them are still short. Like for instance, they have a recitation lesson. By the time they're in high school, they're doing that on their own outside of school time.
But in middle school, they still have a 10-minute recitation lesson. They may have a 10-minute time of reading. So not all of the lessons are going to take 40 minutes.
And I also want to point out that in high school right now, many of the schools are changing to block systems. Where they are providing like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours for a single subject. So, say math.
First of all, who can pay attention to a subject that is often challenging for two hours like that? But then on top of that, they may do it in the fall semester, then not have math. Because the way they do it, these blocks, they would have like four classes a semester.
So maybe they would not have math at all in the spring. And then maybe the next year they're a sophomore and they don't have math in the fall, but they do in the spring. So, they've gone a full year with no math of any kind.
And now again, they have two-hour lessons. And then you compare that to what we can do in a homeschooling scenario. And this is what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was every day, 30 minutes, every day, 30 minutes.
All the way through high school, every day of the week. And she actually had them doing algebra two days a week, geometry two days a week. And then continuing arithmetic, even maybe up into statistics, because some of these things they get done.
They go on to trigonometry or something in this session. But they are always getting that mental work every single day. Comparing those two things, you can see why this short lessons is valuable to just always be touching on a subject and challenging yourself in that way.
Laura Dugger: (17:32 - 17:59) There's another Charlotte Mason quote that I want to read where she says, “My object is to show that the chief function of the child, his business in the world during the first six or seven years of his life, is to find out all he can about whatever comes under his notice by means of his five senses. Nicole, how can we intentionally incorporate this idea?”
Nicole Williams: (18:00 - 22:09) So what she's talking about here is nature study, really. And we often think of nature study as just an extracurricular subject or, you know, something light. I actually my first introduction to Charlotte Mason, it was the nature study that drew me in.
But I know for a lot of people, it's the opposite. You know, they like, why do we have to do this nature study stuff? But she's also particularly talking about a very young child in this case.
So, what she tells us later in this quote is that the intellectual education of the young child should lie in the free exercise of perceptive power, because the first stages of mental effort are marked by the extreme activity of this power. So perceptive power, picking up details, paying attention long enough to pick up details. And furthermore, this little quote, it is about two sentences after the header.
Habit is ten natures, which is kind of a funny title. But habit is one of the three educational instruments that Charlotte Mason said that we were allowed as teachers, as parents were teaching our kids. She said we were only allowed three instruments of education.
That is the atmosphere of environment, the discipline of habit and the presentation of living ideas. So that's kind of a big thing. But what I want to point out is this idea of habits.
What we're doing when we are helping them in those first years to find out whatever comes under his notice is they're learning the habit of being attentive. And this is one of the habits of mind. She talks about habits of like our body and our mind, our intellectual habits, just habits like, you know, covering your cough or pushing in your chair.
But she talks about habits of mind when she talks about them. So, they're learning the habit of being attentive for more than a fraction of a second. She gives them a scenario where a child kind of runs by a daisy and the mom calls him back and says, “Oh, look closer. You know, this daisy closes its eye at night. So, it's like a day's eye because during the day it's open and at night it closes up.”
And for that moment, the mom is just drawing the child back to this little object lesson and helping them to look at it for just a couple more seconds than they were going to look at it on their own.
So, she's building that habit of attention and using their senses. They're also learning the habit of thinking when they're spending time in nature about what they've observed. You know, they're asking themselves, why does the daisy close at night?
And where's the bee going next? And how did the tree produce these flowers in spring? How does it know when it's time for the tree buds to open or the daffodils to bloom?
And so, they're learning the habit of thinking and they're learning the habit of imagining, which is another one of the habits of mind. Where does the tracks of this fox come from? Was it skulking around here last night?
What was he looking for and where was he going and learning to imagine? And they're learning the habit of remembering. They may see a bee and they saw a bee yesterday, but they remember that yesterday's bee had a black face and this one has a yellow face.
So, it must be a different one. And they're often narrating; we're asking them to tell us what they saw. And so, they're learning the habits of accuracy and truthfulness.
No, there wasn't a thousand bees, but there was a lot. How many? Maybe, maybe a hundred, you know, so they're learning to be accurate.
So, these habits that we're cultivating through nature study and object lessons in these very young age allow our children to make the most of living ideas when they're presented through their education. So, you know, we think it's nothing, but we're helping them when they start their reading lesson, when they start their math lesson. All of these habits of mind that we've been training through nature study are going to be able to be utilized in the child when they get to doing lessons like that.
Laura Dugger: (22:10 - 22:24) Well, that leads me to wonder, Nicole, from your perspective, what are the unexpected benefits of living a life out of doors and delighting in nature, almost regardless of weather?
Nicole Williams: (22:24 - 27:31) OK, I've just started reading the book. There's no such thing as bad weather. And she even chuckles in there.
She's from Sweden and she says that there is a poll done in Sweden where they ask people because they are like they have outdoor kindergarten. Like every day is outdoor the whole-time kindergarten in Sweden, you know. And she said all they could say is it's good for you.
And it truly is good for us. It's good for us mentally and it's good for us physically. On the mental note, Charlotte Mason talked about how we can recall something that we've seen, and it gives us a level of peace when we're kind of in our busy lives.
So, she had the children do something called picture painting, which was actually just a mental exercise with maybe mom and child would be standing at the edge of a pond and they would make a mental picture of that pond. And the mom could help by pointing out things like the reflection of trees on the lake or something like that to help them get a more full picture. But the idea was these pictures of natural places they had experienced and been to would be with them always.
And they could kind of reflect on them anytime they needed a peaceful moment. There's also studies that show that if students spend time in nature before they take a big test, they do better on the test. And interestingly, those tests were side by side with people who spent time in nature or people who spent time like walking down a busy street.
And the mental piece that came from walking solely in nature versus walking on a busy street where your mind is keeping track of the cars and the people and things like that, that's not restful. And the restfulness of walking in nature allowed kind of their brain to regroup and they did better on a test after that. That was a test that was mentioned in Last Child in the Woods, which is an excellent book.
And if you think you know all the reasons why nature is valuable and important, that book has so much more to say than you ever thought. Also, one of the things that happens is the child's sense of beauty grows. I do a whole hour-long talk on the importance of this and how we miss it.
My husband and I went away for just three nights here recently. And each morning he would go out and fish and he would come back. And the last day he said, the daffodils have bloomed since we've been here. And I said, “No, are you talking about it like the big curve in the road?” He said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Those were bloomed when we got here.”
And he just he was really focused on the river and the fish, and he'd missed it every day. And we do this when I do my talk. I actually show this little video or something really large and interesting shows up in the screen.
And every single time, 50 percent of the people don't see it. And when we think about the importance of seeing beauty around us, it's God's world. It's the beauty that he has given us to kind of encourage us and build us up and remind us of what purity looks like.
And if we don't see it at all, because we're just really honed in on our life and our schedule and the next thing we've got to get to, that's just a huge loss. So, on that note, it could lead to a greater reverence and a fuller appreciation of God. There's so much that God reveals to us through nature and we have to be able to see it in order to appreciate that.
And then, like I talked about before, it's the natural way people, young children, older people to learn. So, if they spend time in nature and they're able to, say, discern that black faced bee from the yellow faced bee. Then when we're asking them to look at the letter B versus D and there is just such a small difference between the two, they are more attentive and discerning to little details.
And then finally, my favorite one is that it lays the foundation for science. I would even say it really is science. People want to skip this and just go to the book, Work of Science.
But also, in Lash Out of the Woods, Richard quotes a man who is Stanford University School of Medicine professor. And he points out that it's alarming to teach these doctors how the heart works as a pump because they've never done anything that shows the physics of this. They've never, I think he says, like worked a garden hose or worked on a car, siphoned something.
All of these direct experiences in the backyard, they've missed those. And so, they're being trained them by rote memory, but they have no experience with the physics of the way the world works. So, it really is science also.
Laura Dugger: (27:32 - 27:44) That's incredible. And I'm hearing such a mystery involved as well. We don't know all that God is up to being outdoors and what he created, but there's so much learning taking place.
Nicole Williams: (27:44 - 27:45) Absolutely.
Laura Dugger: (27:47 - 33:22) And now a brief message from our sponsor.
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Now, back to the show.
Well, Nicole, you mentioned that your specialty is science, and when I think of your website, it has the name Sabbath in the title. So how do you weave these two together in your life?
Nicole Williams: (33:23 - 37:23) Yeah. So, I started a blog immediately after hearing a Wendell Berry poem, and that's how I named my blog. So, it was named before I started doing science curriculum.
But if you don't mind, I'd love to read the poem to you. It's beautiful. It's short.
Yeah, please do.
He says, “Whatever is foreseen in joy must be lived out from day to day. Vision is held open in the dark by our ten thousand days of work. The hand must ache, the face must sweat, and yet no leaf or grain is filled by work of ours. The field is tilled and left to grace. That we may reap great work is done while we're asleep.”
When we work well, a Sabbath mood rests on our day and finds it good. And that just had such a powerful impact on me because I realized as homeschool families, and Charlotte Mason made this very, very clear, we are presenting all of the feasts to our children, but we don't know what they're going to be interested in, what they're going to have an aptitude for, learning disabilities or challenges they may have, or places where they will excel and go above and beyond in a subject. We don't know those things.
We are working in cooperation with the Holy Spirit by sitting down every day and doing the lessons that are part of our schedule for that day. And what becomes of that within our child is up to the Lord. And that is hard for us because we have a lot to prove, or we think we do, to our neighbors, to our in-laws, to the local school, if we are having to school under some kind of an umbrella system in our state.
If we have children who have any kind of delays or special needs, we feel like we have even more to prove. And what Charlotte Mason wanted us to do was just present this information and let it take root in the child the way it would, because she said that they had a natural desire to learn. When they don't, it's because we've actually done something to destroy it.
They have a natural desire and ability to learn the types of things that we're putting before them. So, there's a lot of faith that goes into what we're doing. And frankly, there's a lot of faith that goes into a teacher in a classroom.
It's not any different. It's just that we will have a whole lot more peace in our life if we acknowledge that that's how it is, that we're not in charge here, that God is. So that is how my blog got its name.
And then science fell into that. And I feel like it's the same. It really just everything falls under that category for me, that our children are due the material that we're offering them.
And it's not within our right to hold back pieces and parts of it because maybe it's hard for us. For instance, physics. A lot of parents did not take physics in school because it was so math based in school.
But I was just talking to you about how physics is their love that God gave us. They are in nature everywhere we see. So, to kind of put blinders on and pretend like it's not there, that's not right.
It's a subject that's due to our child, whether they can handle the math or not. And so, through my curriculum, I actually have the math as optional. And I say optional, but it's not optional to the students.
It's optional because if a student can't do the math, they still have the ability to do the course and learn about the laws that God's given us. So, I don't know if that answers your question or not.
Laura Dugger: (37:23 - 37:44) I love how you explain things. And I think it's helpful that we've covered an overview of your chosen method of homeschooling. But I'd also like to know some more specific rhythms.
And so, what potential do you see in morning time, afternoons, and evenings?
Nicole Williams: (37:46 - 44:32) Yeah, I feel even more strongly about this stuff now that I'm not homeschooling because I really began to follow Charlotte Mason's ideas for her schedule. And it wasn't just the school schedule. She had kind of a whole day schedule for the kids.
She wanted them to start lessons at around nine, eight or nine. And, of course, these things are flexible. I don't want to make it sound like it's a legalistic thing, but she wanted them to start school around nine.
And then depending on their age, school stopped after two and a half to four hours. Two and a half for the youngest children, four hours for the oldest. And she had different amounts established for the different ages.
And the reason that it was kind of short like that is because she felt like twofold. One, their attention was going to be greater on their subjects if we kept their school day shorter. And she packs a lot in there.
So, there is this feeling of like the big deep breath after school is over because we've worked hard during that time, especially if you have kids, multiple kids in different age ranges. But then because after school she wanted them to have time for free play and just literally running mostly outside games, climbing trees, collecting wildflowers, doing things like that. And we know whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we know how important this free time is to kids.
For one thing, when they are playing outside, how many times have we seen our kids playing a game that is related to what we've been reading in history or tapping into whatever their science was? You know, maybe they're studying insects and now they're out there collecting them. So, there is this thing that happens in their brain.
It's like when we go to sleep after reading a book and mulling over a big question and then we wake up in the morning and we have our answer. Our brains do work in the background when we are not busy trying to shove things in. But this doesn't happen when we're playing video games or watching TV.
Our brains really check out at that. So, we have to have a play time for the kids or free time. And then she called them back just before what she called tea time.
And it really is like our dinner time an hour before then. And everybody did what she called occupations. And this was handicrafts.
And maybe your child plays the piano and they need to practice every day making entries in their book of centuries, which is kind of a history timeline kind of book, their nature notebook, things like that. So, there is this block of time before dinner. And by the way, some chores and things like that and then dinner.
And so that kind of leaves the before school in the morning and the after dinner to like leisure time, chore time, maybe getting meals cooked and things like that. Well, I started following her schedule pretty closely during my time homeschooling. I didn't really pick up on her schedule until kind of about halfway through my homeschooling journey.
But little by little, I understood more what she was saying to do and really implemented it. Well, then when I was done homeschooling, I still had one, but she was very independent. My life seems to kind of go off the rails.
I was struggling. I just could not get anything done. It felt like I was doing so much.
And I don't know. I just I can't even really quite explain it. But I was super overwhelmed with the work that I do.
I wasn't getting dinner made. And at some point I realized that all of that really somewhat rigid schedule that we had fallen into over the years was such a piece to my life. I am not a person who likes a schedule.
I actually just really want to be left alone. Whatever the day brings that I want to do, I want to do it. I am not a person who keeps a list of what they're going to do every day of the week and stuff like that.
It's just not a comfortable place to me. But what I found when all of that was taken away is that the comfort and the peace that came with those routines was gone. And so, I look back and I just have to say that is that is the potential in those things and having a time for all of the things.
So, I eventually had one day a week that I would accept, you know, doctor's appointments when I started homeschooling. If they wanted me to go to the dentist at, you know, 10 in the morning because I'm flexible, I'm a homeschooler. I would go do that and totally wreck our whole school day.
And then there came a time where I said, no, we only do appointments on Wednesday afternoons. And maybe I had a backup thing if it happened. That was the doctor's day off or something like that.
But if I had to wait five weeks for an appointment, that's what I did. Unless it was an emergency, of course. But I really landed on a pretty rigid outline.
Now, we have things happen. We moved in the middle of the school year like five times. We remodeled the house.
I lost my mom. I cared for my grandma at the end of her life. Things happen.
So, I'm not suggesting that this is like a very rigid thing, but we have to have something to aim at. And when we do and we know nine o'clock, I'm going to have my mom butt in my chair. And I expect everybody else to be there, too, because this is my job.
And there are other people who can educate my kids, and the bell will ring and it starts on time. So, if I'm going to take on this role in my life, I need to be accountable to my children, to my husband, to myself to make this a priority. And when I started having a little bit more of that attitude.
There came peace. It's just like our life under the law of the board. The rules he gives us allows us to have peace in our life.
And when we establish some of those for ourselves, it can bring peace, too. So, there's definitely potential in having kind of blocks of your day. This is what we do now.
This is what we do this day of the week. That kind of thing. And everybody gets on board with it, too.
We take a nature walk on Friday. Everybody knows it. Everybody looks forward to it. And everybody holds me accountable to it. That kind of thing.
Laura Dugger: (44:33 - 44:49) That is so helpful to hear. And really, even during those especially trying seasons, it seemed like this self-disciplined intentionality with which you lived life, that that really brought in freedom kind of unexpectedly.
Nicole Williams: (44:50 - 45:25) It really did. In fact, towards the end of homeschooling, I found that my business was growing, and I felt like I had so much to do there. But when I sat down to do lessons with my kids, there was never more scheduled for that day's series of lessons than we could do during that time.
So, there was never this feeling of being behind or being rushed or trial. It was just like; this is what we're going to do today. And it gave great peace.
It really did. It took a long time for me to get to that place. I hope other people can get there faster than me.
Laura Dugger: (45:26 - 45:42) But even to hear about your journey, if you said the longest school days, I'm assuming even as they got older, it was about four hours to get everything done. So then by one o'clock in the afternoon, is that when you would do your work?
Nicole Williams: (45:42 - 47:49) It is. And so, at that point, they were older. What I found is that when we do our lessons with our kids in that kind of intense way, like we've got four hours, we're doing them.
And my kids, of course, at that age, they were both the last two were in high school. You know, one might be on one couch, one on the other. I'm in the chair and I do something with one of them and then maybe the other.
Then we're both doing. So, they're not like going off. They were there. We were all. And maybe I had a period of time to myself that I could use for planning, you know, a half hour.
They're both reading their history. I'm going to plan for, you know, tomorrow's lesson or something like that. So, there was some let up there. It is different when you have like two children who are learning to read.
You know, there is a lot more challenge than that. I used to say when they were younger that I felt like an air traffic controller and the intensity of that time of me getting from this child's lesson to that child's lesson. Now I've got to hear a narration.
We really had to be very orderly about it, or it wasn't going to get done. But when it was done, the kids wanted to go off and play. They weren't going to hang on me because they'd had a lot of really good quality time with me.
So, they were ready to go play. And that gave me like, OK, redirect, you know, have a break. I would do some work.
Often I made lunch and cooked dinner at the same time after school lesson. And then that was done and put aside. And then later I did have a child who got into ballet and spent like four hours some nights in ballet.
And then that's when I kind of did my work. You will never, ever hear me recommend to a homeschooling mom to take on work. It is hugely challenging to homeschool your kids, take care of your home and do any kind of outside work.
You really, it's hard just to do the basics. It's really hard when you have to throw some number of hours every day of work in there, too.
Laura Dugger: (47:49 - 48:02) And yet it sounds like God did call you to this work and you've participated well and you've ordered your life in this way. He's provided the grace to make this all happen.
Nicole Williams: (48:03 - 49:30) He has. I'd say one of the big things that I have taken away from all this is when you have times in your day where, you know, this is when I do school. This is when I cook dinner. This is when I do my morning chores. I will be home these days of the week. I won't go out of the house.
When you order your life in that way and you get called to do something like take care of my elderly grandma, you have room in your life to do that kind of thing. My grandma only lived a short distance from me. It took me like five minutes to get to her house.
But I would go every night, and I would take her dinner, and I'd sit with her for another hour or so and then I would put her to bed at night. Well, there were times in my life where I ran myself so hard that I could have never done that for her. So sometimes when we feel like we have a little extra time, we may take up knitting or, you know, read a book.
Do something that is edifying and building you up because you don't know what the Lord is going to call you to do in your life. And when we pack out every minute of every day, we're not really allowing him to call us into helping another person or do something that he's calling us to do. So that's my little soapbox.
Laura Dugger: (49:30 - 49:56) Yes, that is rightfully convicting. I think of a local woman here, Marsha Cook, who said margin makes me kinder. And so, I think that's worth pursuing.
But I am grateful that you work because you do a lot of good work and you have so much available. Can you just share a little bit more about your work and where we can go after this chat to learn more from you?
Nicole Williams: (49:57 - 53:15) Sure. My website is Sabbath Mood Homeschool, again, named after Brindleberry's poem. And there you will find just a lot of blog posts over many, many years.
You also find my living science curriculum there that is based entirely on how Charlotte Mason did it. So, I take no pride in my idea because it isn't my idea. I am literally just trying to basically do lesson planning for the parent.
You know, what experiment goes with this reading this week? What other resource like a current event or maybe a video would help to support this information? Just trying to take that work that the parent would need to do to prepare for that lesson and do it for them so that I have that there.
And in the last couple of years, I started making nature videos, too, to help people along with nature study. Charlotte Mason felt that it was best for the parent to learn about nature so that they could then help their kids along. So, I have videos about the different categories of flowers and birds and trees through the seasons and what to watch for.
And there's just a lot of things that like, you know, lots of people don't know that the buds on bushes and trees that form the flowers and the leaf buds are often formed in the fall. And they're there all winter long and we can look for them. So, things like that.
So, I have that there. And then I also have a newsletter that you can sign up for there. That is kind of random, both in how often it comes out and in what I include.
But I include things like, you know, the books I've read in a year and if there's a special coming up or sometimes just encouragement to something that maybe I'm thinking about at the time regarding how we spend our time or something like that. And then I'm also the co-host of a delectable education. And you've interviewed Emily and I think Liz comes next.
Right. Is that how it goes? That's correct.
All right. And the three of us together have the podcast of delectable education. And we're just finishing up our ninth season right now.
So, we have episodes on every subject of a Charlotte Mason education. Like, how do we do history? What in the world is Sulfa?
And what do we do? But then we also just have a lot of episodes just, you know, encouraging the homeschool family how to do this, what to do with afternoon times, things like that. And we put on a virtual conference every year called ADE at home.
And that is in February. And it was kind of born out of the delays of 2020, you know, but no conferences could happen. But we found that it has been a beautiful way to utilize students doing their lessons.
And so, when people watch, they're watching a family do a lesson before them, which we can never do at an in-person conference. So that has been incredible. We've gotten really good feedback on that.
So, we've continued doing it. That's about it. That's everything I think.
Laura Dugger: (53:16 - 53:40) So much on your plate, but we will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode in case anyone wants to follow up and study further. And Nicole, you may know that we're called the Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with discernment or practical knowledge. And we would love to hear your practical life tips.
So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Nicole Williams: (53:42 - 54:45) Well, I would just have to say in a sentence is making a schedule and sticking to it. As much as I say that you have you have to picture me kicking and screaming on the floor like a two-year-old because I don't like to do it. But flexibility is fun, but it's not actually going to get the important things done in our life.
And we are responsible people who have integrity. And we know there are things that we must get done. And that's the only way that I know how to do it.
But I sometimes think of life creeping in. I have this mental picture of being in the front of a concert and people pushing and pushing. And if you go down, you're going to get trampled and maybe killed.
And I feel like that is how life is. It is always trying to creep in and push in on us. And we have to guard our life, our kids' school schedule, our kids' play time.
We have to guard that seriously because it's very, very important. So that's it. Make a schedule and stick to it.
Laura Dugger: (54:45 - 54:59) That is so good. And, Nicole, you just have such a warm and welcoming personality and a very calming presence. I really enjoyed this opportunity to get to interview you.
So, thank you for being my guest.
Nicole Williams: (55:00 - 55:18) Thank you so much. I wish the best of luck to all of your listeners. And I know this is a hard thing we've taken on.
It is not easy. But it is such a value. There's going to be fruits in their life throughout their whole life because of the time that you're devoting to them now.
Laura Dugger: (55:20 - 59:04) Thank you for that encouragement.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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