*Disclaimer* This episode contains mature content and user discretion is suggested.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 NIV “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.”

*Transcription Below*

Kris Reece is a Christian Author, Toxic Relationship Coach, and Manipulation Tactics Specialist. Kris equips believers to escape the grip of toxic relationships—especially those shaped by guilt, confusion, or spiritual distortion. Her work empowers Christians to set biblical boundaries and walk in emotional and spiritual freedom. Connect with her on Instagram or through her website.

Thank you to our sponsor for today’s episode: Midwest Food Bank

Topics and Questions We Cover:

Do you believe it’s more nature or nurture or do you have any insight on why people are narcissists?
Can we cut off toxic people without disobeying God?
Will you share how we can forgive biblically, without tolerating further abuse?

Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce Podcast:

146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick

148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg

263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

*Transcription*

Music: (0:00 – 0:10)

Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

My returning guest for today is Kris Reece. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, I hope that you'll just press pause right now and go back to listen to part one.

After reading her amazing book, Breaking the Narcissist's Grip, I knew that we would need multiple weeks to cover this very important topic. So, we're going to dive deeper into part two today. Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Kris.

Kris Reece: (1:14 - 1:18) Thank you so much, Laura. I am so excited to be here again today.

Laura Dugger: (1:18 - 1:47) Well, I am delighted to have you back. And it was so surprising your answer to that first question last week. So, I want to unpack that a little bit further.

You were talking about so many adults who were struggling and coming for coaching that they were identifying the same thing, a relationship with a toxic mother. And so, can you paint the picture of what that actually looked like when they had that realization?

Kris Reece: (1:49 - 5:10) Well, you know, what's interesting is everybody had different realizations. Some came to them on their own. I wish I could take credit for it.

They really just came to the wow, I didn't realize just how much my mother keeps coming into this. And then others were really, you know, we had to kind of dig a little bit deeper in terms of what happened in childhood. And again, I'm not the type of counselor who would just sit back and look for excuses to blame somebody's parents.

Absolutely not. But when we start to kind of take a step back into the past to understand what's happening in the present, that's when all of that began to unfold. So, one woman in particular, oh, Laura, it broke my heart.

Absolutely. So, she was struggling with a very difficult marriage. She had no idea what she wanted to do with her life.

And she, honestly, from the way what she said, she says, I don't even know who I am. And when we started to unpack the relationship with her mother and her father and what life looked like when she was growing up, everything was all about pleasing her mother. And I don't mean in a healthy way where, of course, we want to please and get the approval of our parents.

It was to such an extreme that if she didn't speak the way her mother wanted her to, if she didn't comply the way her mother wanted her to, the mother would then manipulate. She would start to cry. Why are you destroying me?

Do you not see what you're doing to me? And then if that didn't work, if the daughter even tried to, and I got to tell you, from what I hear from this young lady, like maybe the age of 12, she had some pretty healthy responses that she was trying to take to this woman. And when that didn't go well, the mother wouldn't talk to her for a week, a week.

She wouldn't even cook for her. She wouldn't do anything. She wouldn't even acknowledge her presence. ‍ ‍

So, this woman grew up believing that I now have to perform. And what's worse, she developed these codependent traits because she learned how to be a mood monitor. I have to now tiptoe around what is mom going to think.

What is mom going to say? And no longer is she now doing what's right. She's doing what feels right, meaning what's going to keep me out of trouble?

What's going to keep mom most happy with me? And she knew all of this was dysfunctional. But at the same time, of course, you're talking about a 12-year-old, and obviously these traits were going on long before that.

She's just learning how to cope. She's not there to parent the parent. But so now that's what she was taught and caught.

So, it's not like the mother came out of the bedroom every morning and said, hey, I'm going to teach you how to perform for me. I'm going to teach you how to monitor all of my moods. She didn't do that.

Everything was caught. So now her default mechanism is giving in to problematic relationships, tiptoeing around, avoiding things. So that's where the issue in her marriage then came in, and it started to get unpacked when we discovered what relationship with mom was like.

Laura Dugger: (5:12 - 5:39) Okay, and that's always so helpful to hear a true story, how that played out. I'm hearing sometimes maybe if you have a parent who's a narcissist, maybe that's likely that the child will experience codependency. But then also, do you see it as a typical generational pattern?

Let's say if you had a narcissistic mother, a lot of times she'll raise a narcissistic son and so on.

Kris Reece: (5:41 - 8:02) Unfortunately, yes. So guaranteed narcissism? Absolutely not. Guaranteed dysfunctional traits? Yes, unfortunately. So how can I be in an unhealthy environment and walk out healthy?

Unless I've done some work to recognize what the unhealthy patterns were. This is how I, I don't want to say contributed as in the child is at fault, but this is what I did to cope. And what helped me survive back then is actually killing me today.

So, unless a child, an adult child is going to begin to do that work, then yes, they're going to continue to carry some dysfunctional traits. Is it automatic that they will become narcissists? No, no, no, no, absolutely not.

Can they? Sure. Absolutely.

So, when we talk about how narcissism gets developed, it's especially through raising, it's either an overly attentive, overly admiring type of parent. Like, you know, Timmy can do no wrong. He's just wonderful and awesome and this and that.

So yeah, chances are Timmy's going to kind of step out of that with some bit of a narcissism. So, when the world smacks him around a little bit and says, Hey, you're not so awesome. He's either going to wake up and say, well, maybe I'm not, or he's now going to make those people the problem.

So narcissistic parents have a tendency to project all of their stuff onto the child. So, I, I encountered this one, one daughter that I worked with whose mother was a narcissist and whose brother now was becoming a narcissist. And what she would do is she would tell the son, this is why your teacher is picking on you.

He's jealous of you. This is why, you know, your, um, your friend doesn't call you anymore. It's because he's jealous of you.

So, she is priming this young man to be a narcissist because when he gets out into the world, not everybody's going to comply to that message. And now he's going to have the language to make them the problem. So, the son was a narcissist, the daughter, not so much, but she had a lot of dysfunctional traits that came as a, as a result of that relationship.

Laura Dugger: (8:03 - 8:16) Okay. So, then kind of the age-old question, do you have any insight for how much narcissism is nature versus nurture? What are we born with versus what are we trained into?

Kris Reece: (8:18 - 11:07) That's an awesome question because science shows us that narcissism is both. It's nature and nurture nature in the sense that we're all born selfish. We're all, we are all born sinful, but nurture, which implies the environment, plays a stronger role in whether those traits are actually going to develop into full blown narcissism or maybe even narcissistic personality disorder, which is far more rare than people think it is.

So, when we look at genetics, so that would be nature, twin and family studies actually suggest about 40 to 60% of narcissistic traits are hereditary, meaning that some people are born with temperaments that make them more prone to arrogance, low empathy, or emotional sensitivity. I don't know that I agree with that entirely, but let's move on to the nurture part. This is your environment.

So, the other 40 to 60% they say come from upbringing, things like overindulging or a highly critical parent. So, it can actually be both sides. So, it's not only the overindulgence, but it's that highly critical parent that is always criticizing but never offering any structured support.

It also comes from that inconsistent affection, conditional love. That's a huge one. I will love you if.

It can also come from childhood trauma, which can actually spawn from neglect or being overly praised for their performance rather than their character. So, in other words, genetics may load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger. So, what starts as survival, I'll never be hurt again, can now grow into pride, control, and entitlement.

So, I believe personally it has more to do with nurture. Science will say there's a strong mix of both. I think it's more nurture.

I do believe that we all have a temperament. You look at any children in your family. I don't know how many kids you have, but you'll see that even from a very young age, they all have very unique personalities from a very young age.

But within that temperament, we're all going to have our strengths and our weaknesses. So, some temperaments may be a little bit more prone to pride that does not guarantee narcissism because I've seen plenty of people with that temperament operate in their strengths as opposed to their weaknesses. So, I think a lot of it has to do more with nurture.

Laura Dugger: (11:08 - 11:38) That is incredibly helpful. And as people have been listening to this conversation and last week's conversation, let's just say if they open up to us and say, I've identified I am in relationship with a narcissist, what's the most helpful thing we can do and the most hurtful way we could respond, especially as Jesus followers?

Kris Reece: (11:39 - 13:30) I know we touched on this lightly last week. The first step is to shift your focus. That focus has got to come off the narcissist and back onto yourself and Jesus and Jesus through you.

You're not going to be able to change them. You are not going to be able to change them. If you're taking notes, I want you to write that down.

You cannot change them. Highlight it. Asterisk it. Circle it. Do whatever you need to do. You cannot change them, but you can choose how you respond.

So, when you stop trying to manage their behavior and start letting God heal your heart, everything changes. So, where we can begin is by saying, Lord, show me. Show me where I've lost my peace and help me take it back.

Show me where I have reacted inappropriately. Show me the entire truth in this situation because this is where real freedom is going to come in, not in fixing them, but in allowing God to restore you. So, you're saying what's the best thing they can do and what's the worst thing they can do?

The worst thing you can do is continue to focus on them. I know you're a narcissist. I know you're doing this.

I see you. Don't, don't, don't. It's going to steal your peace because remember, they've got default tactics.

They're either going to start love bombing and you're going to think, oh, this was great. I changed them. You didn't change them.

They just changed their tactic or they're going to start gaslighting you and they're going to start twisting scripture and they're going to start throwing it back at you. And that, that sense of enlightenment, if I'm allowed to use that word in this sense, that you're so enlightened to what they're doing and what's going on is going to get robbed so quickly. So, shift your focus.

Laura Dugger: (13:31 - 13:53) Okay. And then one step further, let's say it's our friend who comes to us. So then one step removed. Basically, even as the church, how can we respond to that person in a way that's actually helpful to them? And how can we respond in ways that are unintentionally, but still hurtful?

Kris Reece: (13:54 - 17:21) Yeah. So, this is so important. And I wish more people in the church would hear this because some of the worst gas lighters are standing behind the pulpit.

We put spiritual band-aids over demonic hemorrhages and we actually begin to make the situation worse. So, the most helpful thing that you can do is to believe them. Listen without judgment.

Now, I understand that there are a lot of people out there, and especially with that term narcissist. You have a pastor that's sitting down with a woman who comes into the office and says, my husband is a narcissist. We all just bristle.

I bristle when somebody comes in and says, this one's a narcissist. My first question is always going to be this. What makes you say that?

I don't automatically correct them. I don't criticize. And I believe them to the degree that they're going through something.

Doesn't mean I have to believe them to the degree of what they would consider the diagnosis because that's irrelevant. But what we do need to believe is that they are going through something. And they need to be listened to without judgment.

Now, if something's wrong, if something needs to be corrected, we can do that later. Are we really going to bring any harm to somebody by delaying a little bit of correction while we make a proper assessment? So, if we're going to default to either one, whether it's not believing them or believing them, please believe them.

Just be that safe place. Because people in narcissistic relationships, true narcissistic relationships, are already doubting themselves. They are already questioning their own reality.

What they need is safety, not more spiritual pressure. So, we want to avoid things like spiritual bypassing. And this is where we just kind of stick scriptures on that emotional hemorrhage.

Oh, just forgive. Oh, just move on. Don't you think you're overreacting?

Have you prayed on this? Are you giving more sex? You know, we throw all of this.

And that kind of advice actually is the gaslighting that keeps someone trapped in a shame cycle because they walk out of there. I can't tell you the number of times men and women alike, they walk out from a Christian counselor or a church environment, and they feel worse than when they came in. They're not even looking for somebody to say, yes, he's awful. He's the devil. You are so wonderful. That's not even what they're looking for.

They're looking for some semblance of sanity. So, what you want to do is just remind them that Jesus never asked them to confuse love with tolerating abuse. Our job is not to fix their situation but just be that safe place that they need right in that moment.

That's really helpful. I'm a little passionate about that because it really angers me how the church is handling all of this stuff. We do a lot of messages on forgiveness, but we don't do any messages on accountability.

We're not doing any messages on repentance and owning our part. So, it leaves the one who's already assuming the responsibility to try to assume some more.

Laura Dugger: (17:24 - 20:01) And I think that's so helpful for, like you said, for pastors, for people in the church, for biblical counselors, because that can sound great, biblical counseling and giving scripture. But practically, sometimes that, I mean, Satan, even when he was tempting Jesus, used scripture, but twisted it and manipulated it. Not saying that biblical counselors are doing that, but that we can... Not intentionally, but yeah. That's a good clarification because we can misapply that.

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To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today. My desire would be the same as yours, that people could come to the church as part of their healing. But I think that is helpful. We need to be aware of where we've gotten this wrong. And it is something you even wrote about in the foreword of your book.

You said that in Christian community, forgiveness is often misapplied as tolerance for abuse. So, is there anything else you'd want to add to that, especially sharing ways that we can forgive biblically without tolerating further abuse?

Kris Reece: (20:02 - 21:54) Absolutely. But first, I have to give credit to the incredible Gloria Gaynor. She was the one who actually wrote that powerful line in the foreword.

Forgiveness is often misapplied for tolerating abuse. And she captured something that I see so often in the church. Many Christians were taught that forgiving someone means keeping them close, pretending the offense never happened, and reconciling and trusting again.

But biblical forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. Because forgiveness releases the offender from your judgment. Reconciliation requires their repentance.

You would be very foolish; I would be very foolish to reconcile in a relationship where there was no repentance. And Jesus commands us to forgive. Matthew 18:22.

But he never told us to keep giving access to someone who refuses to turn from sin. He even set boundaries with those who are unrepentant. So why aren't we?

And I think that starts to become this Christian badge of honor, like we're somehow martyrs that we keep tolerating this abuse all in the name of love instead of setting boundaries. Because the truth is, at the end of the day, if I can be perfectly honest here, a lot of times it's not about us being loving, it's about us being afraid. Us being afraid to set those boundaries, afraid of their reaction, afraid of confrontation.

It's not about love. So yes, we can fully forgive and still create distance. But now we have to deal with the fallout of what that distance creates.

And that's stuff that if we turn our focus to Jesus, he begins to do in us. It's glorious if you actually allow it to unfold.

Laura Dugger: (21:56 - 22:24) Wow. And you've seen firsthand, I'm sure, so many miracles take place. But then you've said last time you're a practical gal.

So, as a believer, let's say if someone is in a relationship with a narcissist, that that's their parent or their spouse and they're unrepentant and it's been awful. Is there a way that as Christians they can cut off the relationship without disobeying God?

Kris Reece: (22:26 - 27:24) Absolutely. So, title is not going to trump toxicity. So, when the narcissist is a parent or a spouse, the answer isn't going to always be to just walk away.

It's to walk wisely. Because freedom doesn't always mean I got to say goodbye. It means I'm no longer being controlled by you.

And sometimes that's going to require distance or maybe even no contact for a season. Other times it just means a little bit more of an emotional detachment. And I don't mean that in a way that somebody might interpret as like I'm just going to now be cold to you.

But what I mean is that emotional detachment is that my identity, my worth is not wrapped up in your opinion of me. It's not wrapped up in your words. So, I have to have that emotional detachment so I can walk boldly in my purpose, in my identity.

And I can clearly set boundaries within the relationship. So, either way we have to look at this as the goal isn't revenge. The goal is not punishment.

It's peace. It's clarity. It's stewardship.

And that's where a lot of people get tossed up because we think, oh, you know, this is my spouse. This is my mother. And, okay, let's kind of separate those a little bit because the spousal relationship is the only covenantal relationship.

So, if your spouse has some narcissistic traits, meaning they're a little bit manipulative, they lie sometimes, they gaslight you, all that stuff, is that grounds for divorce? Unfortunately, no, no. You know, when it starts to venture into abuse, should we be getting away?

Yes. Every situation is going to be different to somebody listening right now that's going to bring tremendous relief to someone else. They're going to be very angry that I just said that because they want that way out.

But if God is not releasing you right now, I promise you it's because He's looking to do a work in you. And He's allowing this to stay right now. But, again, that is not an excuse to tolerate abuse.

But we also have to be careful what we call abuse. You don't make my breakfast the way I like and then you laugh at me. That's not abuse. That's just a kind of faulty character. So, we really have to be careful as to what we label abuse. I know we're kind of getting down a little bit of a rabbit trail here.

But I know this is a very sensitive topic for most because some will say, no, the only biblical release for marriage is infidelity. And others will recognize that God does give concession for abuse. He's not calling you to stay in an abusive situation.

But we need to be careful what we do call abuse. So, walking away from the spouse is not as easy as walking away from a parent. You know, a parent, it's a little bit easier, but we still want to be able to guard our heart and understanding, am I walking away because I'm punishing you, because I don't want to deal with you, because I can't stand you, or dare I even say there's hatred on my heart for you.

That we really have to do a self-check. But if we're walking away because we have to start protecting our peace and start stewarding everything God's given to us, whether that's our peace, our heart, our purpose, then that's biblical. Because I think it's more society tells us, no, no, no, we need to do what our parents say.

No, no, no, we need to live next door to our parents. No, no, no, we're not allowed to detach from them. Well, that's not what the Bible says.

You know, I look back over the Bible, and I'm just like, there are so many stories of people who, you know, kind of left their parents behind, whether for whatever reasons. Let's just say they journeyed on, and they never saw them again. You know, it wasn't like I have to live right next door to you.

But a lot of these parents will put their own rules in these relationships. And if you don't comply, well, now somehow the adult child is the problem. So again, sorry, I'm going down a few rabbit trails.

But this is a very passionate topic of mine, because there's so many nuances to it. And I wish I could just say that it's so easy as saying, just walk away. You know, you go to a lot of online resources, and they'll say, oh, you're with a narcissist?

Just leave. Just go no contact. It's not that easy, and it's not that biblical.

But sometimes it is. But here's what I do know, is that freedom isn't about always leaving them. It's about no longer losing yourself to them.

Laura Dugger: (27:26 - 28:19) That is good. And I think you've drawn it out clearly, that difference with it's a little bit easier to understand with a parent-child relationship. I'd love to dive into the spousal relationship, because that discernment is really tricky.

And like you said, it's so different from one situation to the next. I think of three other incredible women who have also been guests on the podcast. Because you can do a deep dive and listen to Dr. Diane Langberg, Leslie Vernick, and Stacey Womack, where we do discuss a lot of this. But Kris, I'd really value your opinion, too, to also help with that discernment. In the spousal covenant, how can you identify when there is abuse versus just some of those tendencies that you mentioned?

Kris Reece: (28:20 - 33:06) How do you differentiate? So, there's going to be a spiritual and then a practical approach to it. The first one is spiritual.

You have to be prayerful. Because a lot of, let's just say women in this case, a lot of women who struggle with codependency, they will see abuse where there may just be personality differences. There may be some character flaws.

There may be differences, some behavioral issues. But because she's been so afraid to speak up for so long that she's now internalizing it as I feel abused. So, I had one situation where this woman would constantly call her husband abusive.

So, she would say something like, you know, if you're going to keep talking to me this way, then I think we need to create a little bit of distance between us. And what he meant was, like, I need to go in the next room. Because, you know, you're really reactive here, and I don't like the way you're talking to me.

And she would say, “I'm tired of being abused by you.” And he would ask, “what are you referring to? What do you mean by abusive?”

And she would go off on these generalities. Now, is that to say that a woman like that isn't abused just because she can't put language to it? No, that's not true.

But we also have to be careful. Has our upbringing trained us to see abuse where there isn't? So, I just want to put that as a caveat.

That's not always the case. And a lot of the counselors that I've been friends with and I connect with, don't experience that a lot. For some reason, that's a lot of the women that God has sent to me.

I don't know why. I don't know why. But a lot of the ones that are interpreting abuse or exaggerating abuse, I should say, where it isn't as abusive as they're saying it is.

I need to step back a little bit because this is probably angering somebody right now. They're like, no, I'm being abused. I have no doubt.

I have no doubt about that. But there are going to be some, some of us, who will interpret abuse the wrong way. So, I need you to be very, very prayerful and careful with how we use that word because I personally think the word abuse is even more abused than the word narcissist because it's very convenient.

Unless I've got physical scars, unless I hear somebody's spouse constantly yelling at you and berating you, I can't quantify that. I can't see it. I don't know.

But I do know that there is something that's taking place within you and something that's definitely taking place within the dynamic. So now let's take a big giant step back. How do I know that this is abusive?

Somebody is constantly invalidating you, meaning they are questioning your motives. They are accusing you of things that you're not doing. They are taking away your support.

They are making themselves your lifeline, meaning they're kind of isolating you. They're saying unkind and untrue words. They are unrepentant, unrepentant people.

These people are abusive because they're going to look to constantly justify their behavior. If you can't have a healthy, open dialogue with somebody who, when they make mistakes, maybe they'll come back and repent later, then you are likely in more of an abusive situation than you are a healthy dynamic. And don't get me wrong.

We've all got our dysfunctions. I even had a conversation with my husband just yesterday. And he said to me, he's like, honey, are you sure that's the most healthy way to be interacting right now?

And I didn't even realize that I had fallen back into an old pattern. It was temporary, but we're able to call each other out on certain things. When you don't have that kind of healthy dynamic where you can now both be accountable to each other, one has the power in the relationship, it's likely abusive.

Laura Dugger: (33:06 - 34:26) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com, so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living when you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes as you read through the transcriptions. Because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.

We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website. Happy reading!

You articulate things so well, Kris, and there's a million more questions I could ask you, but I want to respect your time. So, I know that there's places we can go after this conversation to just continue learning from you.

So, can you share where we could head after this chat?

Kris Reece: (34:27 - 34:40) Absolutely. Well, I'd love it if you would head on over to the website. That is krisreece.com.

It's Kris with a K, Reece with a C. There you'll find a whole bunch of resources, free downloads. My new book is there.

So that would be the best place to go.‍

Laura Dugger: (34:41 - 34:58) Wonderful. We'll link to that again in the show notes for today's episode. And as you remember from last time, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. ‍ ‍

And so, it's my final question for you today, Kris. What is your savvy sauce?

Kris Reece: (34:59 - 41:20) Absolutely. So, my Savvy Sauce is learning to trade people's expectations for God's direction. Because peace always follows purpose.

You know, for so long I thought success, even spiritual success, meant being busy, being available, being constantly on. And honestly, if I can dare confess, fixing people. But the truth is that burnout's not holy.

Productivity isn't purpose. And before now, before I say yes to anything, I ask this one question. Is this an assignment from God, an expectation from people, or a diversion from the devil?

And that single filter has brought so much clarity and peace into my life. And I know we're running low on time, but there's something that's really touching on my heart. May I speak to it?

Please. Because, you know, a lot of times we don't, as people who have been in toxic relationships, we have no filters anymore. We just allow everything that they're bringing in to just invade our soul.

We don't have any external filters. We don't filter our mouth. We don't filter our mind.

We don't filter anything. And we don't stop and ask, wait a minute, hold on a second. Is this coming from God?

And this is why it's not so easy to say, hey, you know, that toxic relationship with your mother, just leave. Just go no contact. Move five states away.

Or no, you need to honor and obey. You need to just stay put. There is no hard and fast rule.

Now, there is one. We are called to honor, but how we interpret that honor, that needs to be biblical, not according to mom's standards. So instead of just doing away with all filters, I want to be able to put those proper filters in place and saying, is this from God?

So, let's take the relationship, for example. In my previous marriage, I was married to a narcissist. I learned very early on in the marriage that there was a problem.

I had no idea it was narcissism. I didn't even get language for that until years after the divorce. But very early on in the marriage, and I said, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do?

Because everything in my flesh said just run, just run. And he had me stay for nine years. He had me stay.

And I went through so many different phases. But what I recognized is in those nine years, God did an amazing transformative work within me that in hindsight I recognized he couldn't have done, or probably, yeah, he couldn't have done because I would have just moved on. So, I needed to be in that situation to be on my knees.

I needed to be in the midst of it to be in prayer. Because if I just left, that would have been a form of avoidance. So, in that case, it wasn't as easy.

And according to some people, I probably would have had a biblical release to leave. Now, eventually, it was an obvious biblical release. I mean, there was no doubt I was free to leave this relationship.

And that's when I knew that God had released me. So, we want to be able to examine, okay, God, do you have me in this for a reason? Is it for a reason and a season?

What are you doing inside of this? We make the assumption as people that God would never want me to suffer like this. Is that true?

Because I suffered for nine years, and it brought me to a greater level of faith and a greater level of glory, so that suffering served his purpose. So, the same thing is true for a parent relationship. God could have you in a situation where, no, you don't have a choice to leave.

But that doesn't mean that you don't find freedom from that person, even if you can't leave. And that's why the book is called Breaking the Narcissist's Grip. It's not called Let's Go No Contact because I just want to be able to break that stronghold that you have over me, even if I am still present.

So now there are going to be other times where Satan is now going to send toxic people into your life, and you're going to think that it's your responsibility. Oh, God has put me here. No, Satan hand-delivered them.

And your job is to apply 2 Timothy 3.1. In the last days, there will be people who are lovers of self, proud, arrogant, boastful, and that list goes on. And what does God tell us to do at the end of that scripture? Avoid such people.

So now Satan sends in a diversion, and we decide that we're going to play Holy Spirit, and we're going to be the ones to be Jesus. We're just going to show them Jesus. No, the enemy is successful, slowly trying to destroy you. r savvy sauce. It's I have to be able to trade what people's expectations or even my expectations would be for what God wants in that moment.

Does he want me to stay in this relationship? What is he looking to do in me and through me? Does he want me out of that relationship?

Am I now codependent? Am I trying to stay in this longer than he called me to? And I'm now suffering the consequences of my choices.

So, in summary, I guess you could say when we stop chasing approval and start walking in alignment with what God wants from us, our life gets a whole lot lighter.of that and unpacked your answer and let us in on a glimpse of your story. Thank you for walking faithfully through that. And then for modeling that it's it wasn't a black and white answer, but at one time he had you stay and one time he set you free to go.

And I just really appreciate all that you've shared with us. You have an uncanny gift of speaking truth and love. So grateful for you.

Kris Reece: (41:58 - 42:01) Thank you. I greatly appreciate that. Thank you, Laura.

Laura Dugger: (42:03 - 45:44) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.

Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.

We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.

That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.

This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.

Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.

Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.

And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.

First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.

You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.

And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!