263. Domestic Violence and Abuse: Identifying and Healing from Abusive Relationships with Stacey Womack
Mark 10:27 NKJV "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
Will you teach us about the various types of abuse?
How do we respond appropriately and in a Christ-like manner when someone does report abuse?
What are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to each type of abuse?
Stacey Womack is an award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She founded Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services (ARMS) in 1997 and she is a published author and sought after national speaker. Stacey developed and wrote the curriculum used for ARMS programs, including Her Journey for survivors of abuse and Mankind and Virtue for men and women who have used abusive behaviors. She has assisted tens of thousands of people in recovering from both the receiving and giving of abuse. Her passion has grown ARMS, a small grassroots organization, to now having an international reach.
Abuse Recovery Ministry & Services Website
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Grace Catering
Other Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce:
146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick
148 Overcoming Evil with Good: Recognizing Spiritual Abuse with Dr. Diane Langberg
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:50)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's episode includes some thematic material. I want you to be aware before you listen in the presence of little ears.
For anyone who feels like they don't have time to cook, but they still desire to have meals that taste just like grandma's, I can't wait to share more about one of my favorite sponsors, Grace Catering Company. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Stacey Womack is my guest today. She is the award-winning expert in domestic violence from a faith-based perspective. She is the founder of Abuse Recovery Ministry and Services, which she will refer to as ARMS, and she's also the author of this practical and helpful resource entitled On the Front Lines of Abuse, Strategies for the Faith Community.
Stacey fearlessly answers questions today about what defines abuse, what steps can we take today to discover if we're in an abusive relationship, what does the Bible have to say about abuse and divorce, and so much more. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Stacey.
Stacey Womack:
Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here.
Laura Dugger:
Would you mind just starting us off by giving us a current snapshot of your phase of life?
Stacey Womack: (1:52 - 2:48)
Sure. You know, I've been doing this work for 27 years, but actually I grew up in a pastor's home and married young and had my children young. I have six children, and I have my 13th grandchild on the way, and my first great-grandchild is due in December. And in the midst of homeschooling my kids back in the day, God began to speak to me about ministry that he had for me.
And so, this was the door he opened, even though I'm not a survivor of abuse. And back then I never had planned on starting a nonprofit or, you know, having it be the way it is, never planned on having an income off of it. None of that was a part of the plan.
I was just being obedient to what God had called me to do. And so here we are today, 27 years later, providing services nationally and internationally to victims and survivors of abuse and also working with those who use abusive and controlling behaviors.
Laura Dugger: (2:50 - 3:12)
Wow. And abuse is something that's so difficult to understand, and it's a topic that's easy for us to want to avoid. But I appreciate you bringing awareness to this topic that affects more people than we would ever suspect.
So, will you just teach us the various types of abuse?
Stacey Womack: (3:12 - 12:56)
Sure. So, I'll try to go through them fairly briefly for you, but most of the time they only give you a few, but we have eight different areas of abuse that we talk about. So, you know, most people get physical abuse.
That's how most people define domestic violence and abuse is physical, which is all the things from hitting, pushing, slapping, grabbing, strangulation, which is something that's very dangerous. And a person's at risk of dying days and weeks after being strangled, even months after being strangled. So, it's a very serious crime.
Most states it's a felony. But every category has those things that aren't as obvious. So, in physical, it would be like posturing where someone stands up or takes a step towards you, it's right in your space.
The most common form of abuse is psychological, though. This is what is often called emotional abuse by most people. So psychological abuse, I kind of divided into three categories.
The largest one is the crazy making the mind games, the mental coercion, the gaslighting, all those things. And that's very, very hard to explain to people. And it doesn't look like abuse.
It looks like non-memorable conflict oftentimes and gets misdiagnosed that way, I guess you could say. And it's the form of abuse that women say is the hardest to heal from because bruises heal. But the emotional ones that psychological abuse causes can take years and years to heal from.
So also, another big category besides the mind games is the isolation. So, keeping them from friends and family could be outright telling them not to spend time with friends and family, or it could be, you know, allowing them to go spend time with friends and family, but then they pay for it later. So, there's some type of punishment for doing that.
Moving her from place to place, or church to church, to keep her from having any kind of support. So that's very common. And then another category in here, and I'm just keeping them very brief, is stalking behaviors, which stalking should be taken very seriously because 75% of those who commit homicides are stalkers.
So, this is everything from following, showing up uninvited, not leaving when asked, to the use of spyware, which is often free or cheap. So, you know, those air pods, they drop them in people's purses or put them in places in their car or whatever, just so they can follow them where they're going, those types of things. And among our younger generation, a common stalking behavior would be multiple calling and multiple texting.
So, the second closest that comes to emotional abuse would be verbal abuse. And most of us get the types of verbal abuse that are obvious, the yelling, the swearing, the name calling, the, you know, put downs. I mean, things that are really obvious.
And this is a huge category and not well understood because we have all used some verbal abuse in our lives. So, everything down to things that are more subtle, like the silent treatment as a way to control the conversation or sarcasm, which is actually means the tearing of flesh. So, it's not a healthy way to communicate.
There's a little bit of truth to it. That's what makes it funny. But it's always at someone's expense.
And we live in a pretty sarcastic world. And I, myself, can be pretty sarcastic at times after really watch that because it's really not a kind way to communicate. So, again, this is a huge category.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, lots of financial control and abusive relationships. Most of our men who are abusive use financial control. So, he's making all the financial decisions.
He's controlling the finances, or he allows her to have some access to finances, but not all by hiding assets and hidden accounts, things like that. Or maybe making her handle all the finances while he goes out and misspends. So, then it's her fault.
And now he has a reason to abuse her. And even once they separate, financial abuse continues by not paying a spousal or child support. So, I tell our women to not depend on that, do what they need to do legally, but not to depend on it because it's very hard to get that money back.
So, we have verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual, which people get that one too. Rape, unwanted touch, attacking body parts, making her dress a certain way or not dress a certain way. It could include extreme jealousy, which is, again, goes right back into those stalking behaviors.
So, it's these pornography affairs, sexual name calling or sexual putdowns or sexual jokes. Again, another really big category. So that a lot of times some more subtle things that people don't recognize as being abusive because a lot of people use it, like the sexual name calling or sexual using sexual cuss words.
So, I always have to go through those verbal, psychological, physical, financial, sexual property. We don't always think about property being abusive. But if an abuser can convince his victim that he's dangerous, he never has to be physical.
And so, he might punch the hole right next to your head. I had a woman tell me this. And then he saw the fear in her face, and he said, “What? I didn't even touch you.” But the message was, this is what could happen to you. So, property is not always it can include, but it is not always the breaking of things or throwing things.
It could be slamming doors, slamming hands on the table. But it could also be moving property to make her think she's going crazy. So, she has a place she keeps her keys. He moves them to make her think she's going crazy, that she can't remember where she's putting things anymore.
So, you always have an overlap in an abusive event. It's never just one form of abuse unless it's just psychological and very subtle. But property abuse also includes the use of weapons.
In the groups that we've been doing with men for the more than two decades that we've been working with them, usually they're not using the weapon there. It's the implied threat of use of weapons. So, we had one woman who went to her boyfriend's house, and he came out of his bedroom with a knife and laid it on the table and said, “I just don't know what I'd do if you left me.”
Or we had many guys in the program for tapping knives while they create and continue arguments with their partners. So, it could be any misuse of any property. It could even be gift giving to get her to comply back into the relationship.
So, it's not always what you think of when you think of like guns and knives. It doesn't have to be that way. It can be very subtle.
So then we have spiritual abuse, spiritual abuse. Since we're a faith-based organization, we talk about the misuse of scripture. So, he's using scripture to get her to comply, to get his way.
And God's word is a balance between judgment and love and mercy. And when you remove that love and they're just going with the judgment side of God's word, you are misusing God's word. It's not what God intended for his word.
He did not ever intend for the word to be weaponized against a person, especially in an intimate relationship. So, we talk about the difference between submission and oppression and how they are different from one another in our groups. It's also for our men who attend church regularly.
I always tell pastors, if you've got a man who's coming to you and he's working his way through the church leadership and he's being very humble and he's telling you that he knows he has his issue, but he's concerned for his wife that he's not really being abusive. That she just thinks he's being abusive to her because she's experienced abuse in the past or she has mental health issues or she's cheating on him, which is usually not true. They're doing this to discredit her while they're doing what we call public image management to make themselves look good to the public.
So, they're involved in all kinds of things. It may be on the church council. So, you know, when they tell their church leadership this, it's hard to believe.
It's hard for them to believe when she comes forward and says this is what's actually going on in my relationship because they've not experienced that from him. He's been a great guy around them. So, questioning her theology, her salvation, keeping her from going to church, making her go to church, moving her from church to church, things like that, too.
And then the last one is animal abuse. And of course, we think about harming animals. And of course, when you harm an animal, that is animal abuse.
But in terms of the work we do, it's about using the animal to control the person in some way. And that might include the threat to get rid of it, the threat to harm or the threat to kill or the doing of those things or neglecting, not like not feeding or watering the pet. But it could also be things like getting a pet she's allergic to or afraid of or withholding affection from her while he's being overly affectionate to the pet.
We have lots of women who tell us about that. So, again, it's not about necessarily harming the pet as much as it is about using the pet to gain control. You have to remember that abuse is about power and control and abuse means the misuse of.
So, anything can be misused, not just physical hitting and punching and misuse of our strength, but anything can be misused. And when it's used to gain power and control in an intimate relationship. It's a pattern; that's when you're looking at someone who has an abusive personality.
Laura Dugger: (12:57 - 13:27)
Wow. Thank you for laying that foundation and expanding our definition. It sounds like so many sins, domestic violence can be insidious, and it can usually begin with a very charming spouse who eventually becomes more and more abusive.
So, have you found that people more easily recognize when they're in an abusive relationship or is it surprising and confusing to them?
Stacey Womack: (13:28 - 16:58)
It's mostly confusing and surprising, maybe in that order. You know, since I work with these men, too, there are really great things about them. There's really good qualities I see in them.
And that's what these women fall in love with, these really great qualities. And these men can be extremely charming. And even if you haven't been raised in abuse and you find yourself in an abusive relationship, sometimes it's because you were in a really vulnerable place when you got involved.
And it just felt really good to have somebody come in and be so big and strong and great in your life. Or there's other times guys are just so good at this that they're just believe completely. There's no reason not to believe, right?
I mean, you trust somebody because you expect them to be telling you the truth. So, it usually starts off very subtle and it gradually increases. So, he might start questioning.
So, is that what you're going to wear? Or, you know, well, that's a lot of makeup. Or maybe, you know, telling her that he doesn't agree with something that she agrees with and that maybe her friends and family aren't good for her and maybe she needs to distance herself from them.
We've had women tell us that that happens to them. So, we have a checklist on our website under am I in an abusive relationship, basically. And underneath that, there's actually a PDF that they can print out and check off.
And it usually starts off with things like, are you surprised by his anger? Does his anger scare you? You know, and then we work down to more obvious forms of abuse.
But when a woman goes through that list and it's actually degenerate. So, a male or a female could go through the list. And they could go through it and they could determine, am I experiencing a pattern of these behaviors in my life?
Marriage should be the safest place for you. And when it's not, there's something wrong there. And we do work with women who are abusive.
So, I do want to acknowledge that there are male victims out there. And when they call us, since we don't have a group for them, because perpetrators believe they are the victims. So, if I opened a men's victim group, I would get a room full of perpetrators.
Male victims tend to say very similar things to our female victims and behave in very similar ways that our women behave as well. And so, we refer them out to counselors that we trust. And, you know, and women can be what we call primary aggressors in the relationship.
And they act and talk and say the same kinds of things as our male primary aggressors. And most primary aggressors are male because it just works better for them. They're bigger, they're stronger, they're given privilege that women are not given.
So, it just works better for them. But there are women out there who do that. And then there's those relationships where both parties are using abused.
But one is a primary and one is a secondary. It doesn't make the abuse okay. It doesn't even make it okay when you or I say something or act in a way that disregards or disrespects another person.
That's sin. So, I think that we need to be really honest with the fact that this is a human issue. And that it's okay to come out and say, you know what, I have a problem with this.
And I need help. And that's what we're trying to offer for both the men and the women that we serve.
Laura Dugger: (16:59 - 17:21)
And I'm just simplifying it. But in my mind, when you talk about primary and secondary, it makes me think for that secondary person, just simply hurt people, hurt people. So, is that what you're talking about?
Where they are not the initiators of the abusive behavior, but when they are abused over time, they respond with abusive patterns as well?
Stacey Womack: (17:21 - 19:17)
Yeah, abuse is a learned behavior. So, if they grew up in a home where abuse was present, you know, as much as you don't like some of those negative things that we all get from growing up, we get good things and bad things. We often end up repeating them until we learn something different. And so, some of our women in our secondary aggressors program, you know, have had to fight their entire life to survive.
And sometimes it's just safer to be the aggressor than it is to be the victim. And so, a lot of times when women are using abusive behaviors, it's more about trying to be heard or it's payback. So, they don't really gain power and control from their abuse, not really.
It's usually when they're abusive, the women are just getting payback for what their abuser did. So, one woman, her and her husband had an argument and he's this big guy. And so, to get back at him, we would call this properly anal and psychological.
She took the pillow and rubbed it all over the cat because he's allergic to cats and put the pillow back on the bed so he'd wake up with puffy eyes. It's a very passive form of abuse, but it is a way to get back at him. And then we have those women who just fight back verbally and they can.
I had this little gal, not probably hardly even 100 pounds. She could bring a 200 pound, six foot tall husband to his knees with just her words. And this is a woman who had to fight her entire life.
So, you know, you can see there's times where relationships where there's more. I don't really like the word mutual, but there's they're both using abusive behaviors, but it's the only way they know how to live life. And so, the women come out of this program saying, now I understand that his abuse to me does not excuse my abuse to him.
And I have power to make choices that will bring change to my life. And that's a powerful place to be much more powerful than being a victim.
Laura Dugger: (19:18 - 19:45)
Absolutely. And I think the hope that I'm hearing is when you say abuse is a learned behavior. Does that mean we can learn our way out of it as well?
So, anyone who is in an abusive relationship or is finding if they're listening to this, maybe they find out that they are the abuser, you can learn your way out of it then?
Stacey Womack: (19:45 - 21:27)
You can. It takes a tremendous amount of work. But both the victim and the perpetrator or the survivor, they have to learn new tools, both of them, because we have women who get out of abusive relationships who find themselves right back into another abusive relationship.
The tools that women use in abusive relationships are amazing. The ways that they do things to survive the abuse is absolutely amazing. But those same tools do not serve them well once they're out of abuse.
Some of them get into healthy relationships, but they're still using those old tools that they picked up during the abusive relationship. And so, they come to group a recovery group so that they can heal from that and learn a new way and let go of that pain and hurt and learn behavior so that they can also be healthy in that relationship with that new partner. So, and he also and for the abuser, someone who's like this is they've been the primary aggressor in the relationship and they have a lifetime of picking up belief systems that have given them permission to behave that way.
And that doesn't change in 12 weeks. Programs for those guys and those gals should be long; thirty-six weeks the absolute minimum. I think a year or even two years is better because you need practice to sustain change. We have lots of guys who change, but getting that sustained change takes lots of accountability and lots of hard work.
And it's difficult to do. But we have those stories of couples that make it. There's a lot more that don't make it.
All the men make some changes, but often not enough to save the relationship. So, it varies.
Laura Dugger: (21:27 - 23:38)
And now a brief message from our sponsor, Grace Catering Company in North Peoria offers a rotating menu of scrumptious meals for you to take home and pop in your own oven with family friendly options like lasagna, bacon wrapped meatloaves, chicken Alfredo pasta, breakfast burritos and creamy garlic chicken breasts. Your homemade dinner will be on the table in no time. They also offer healthier and lighter options as well as some gluten-free and keto-friendly choices.
The meals are packaged in a variety of sizes, which makes it perfect for individuals or couples, or they have portions large enough to feed the entire family. Their menu is on a six-week rotation. You can stop by for a grab and go lunch with their signature sandwiches, salads, soups or quinoa bowls depending on the season.
I also recommend you top off your meal with one of their sweet treats, such as their popular scotcheroos, iced sugar or chocolate chip cookies, or their cookie of the month. The founder and owner Renee Endres has also created my all-time favorite cookbook. My grandparents actually gave this to me as a gift when I was a newlywed and it has been put to great use for the past decade and a half.
The recipes are easy and approachable and the feedback from our family and from guests we've hosted in our home has always been positive when the meal came from Renee. When I've gifted this cookbook to friends, they will commonly remark how these are also the most delicious desserts they've ever tasted. Our extended family also loves to use the take and bake options on Sunday afternoons, which allows us to enjoy a delectable meal while still getting to enjoy a true Sabbath.
Grace Catering Company is located just off Alta Lane in North Florida. Check them out today at gracecateringcompany.com.
Well, and with your programs, what are some of the things that you do offer for someone who finds themselves in an abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (23:40 - 28:08)
Yeah, so our largest program is called Her Journey and it's a victim survivor recovery program. So, it doesn't matter what form of abuse you experienced or are experiencing. It could be years ago even.
And we have this, it's a 15 week program, but we lead it year-round so you can just start immediately. It's one of the things that we found out as we've been doing this national campaign is that we're the only ones that we've found that are free. It's a free program.
We have Zoom. So, we have every day of the week covered. If we don't have something right in your own state, in your county.
But we're in-person groups in 21 states right now and looking to lead more or teach more leaders how to lead the program in their community, or in their centers, or in their missions. They're often held in churches. It's all confidential.
The women just call in. They don't have to give us their real name. They don't have to give us any information.
They don't want to. We just ask whatever name they use. They keep using the same name so we don't care if they say their name is Minnie Mouse.
That's fine with us. Just so that we can keep track of it for grant purposes. But in that group, it's not a process group.
It's really about hearing God's heart around this issue. And they do get training around domestic violence. But we also go through other topics like dealing with anger, depression and loneliness and just all the different things that happen throughout this process.
Learning how to appropriately boundary set and what to do and what's going to work with an abuser. What's not going to work with an abuser. Those types of things. And so, we found that we just keep it open so the women can join immediately. Because if we don't help them right when they're asking for the help, we'll lose them because the abuser will very quickly work to move them back into the relationship, which is part of the cycle of abuse. And because we want the relationship to work and we want to believe him, we do.
And so, women, you know, leave on average seven times before they leave for good because we don't get into a relationship to see it in. And so, when I talk and train pastors and I had a pastor say, “Well, she's just looking for a way out.” I'm like, “No, that's not true.”
These women do everything, including couples counseling, which is something that does not work when abuse is the issue and power control is the issue. And most pastors that I haven't heard of any seminary that actually does a whole course on domestic violence, they get a little bit of couples counseling and that's it. And even counselors don't get trained in domestic violence.
So, this is only a very small portion of counselors. So, I would tell these women, if you're listening to this now, that they shouldn't do couples counseling, but they should look for a counselor who has 40 hours of victim advocacy training from an advocacy agency and that he needs to go work on his own issues with an agency that deals with domestic abuse intervention. And a lot of times the things that she thinks, or they both think, they need couples counseling for go completely away once he does the work he needs to do.
So, the communication problems, the anger issues, all those things that they think are the cause are no longer an issue. Most of our couples don't even need couples counseling after this because he has learned to love like Jesus loves. That's what we teach is like, what does that mean to be Christlike?
What does that mean to lay your life down? So, but during our time that we work with women or men, secondary or primary aggressors, female or male, we in our groups talk about focusing on that themselves and their relationship with God and not focusing outward because God will take care of that. Sure, pray about it, but release it.
That's God's responsibility. You only have control of this relationship is between yourself and God. And that's where you're going to seek Him about what He's calling you to do in this situation.
And every person's a little bit different. It's not my place to tell someone whether to leave or stay. And we're not here to promote divorce.
And we know the women want their relationships to work. We know they want men to make it to the other side. We do, too, but we cannot make that happen.
So, all we can do is present the information and allow the Holy Spirit to do the work. And the person has to be willing to receive the help.
Laura Dugger: (28:09 - 28:35)
Absolutely. Well, and I even think about how this conversation came about. We had multiple women of different ages, all of them believers, who were reaching out and sharing a little bit of their experience in marriage and sharing some potential abuse.
And I actually reached out to some publicists that I work with and said, “Who would be able to speak to this?” And so that's how we got connected.
Stacey Womack: (28:36 - 28:36)
Yeah.
Laura Dugger: (28:36 - 28:54)
Very much appreciated your book. And as I was reading it, there was one story that was particularly haunting. And it was about a pastor who ended up begging you for training.
So, can you recall what happened?
Stacey Womack: (28:54 - 34:09)
Yeah. You know, a lot of pastors just it's not that they don't care. It's just that they're very uneducated around this.
So even myself, when I first started, I would give people really unhelpful advice before I even began this work because I didn't understand it well. And so, he had encouraged this woman to forgive and go back, which is a typical response. You know, submit more, pray harder.
Those are the kinds of things that a lot of women get from churches. And so, she did. She went home and then he murdered her that night.
And so, this pastor was absolutely heartbroken, as you can imagine, and was calling in and asking, please, please, please train us because we don't want this to ever happen again. You know, and honestly, there are some pastors out there that believe that women should stay in the relationship, even if they are being abused and that God will bless them through their suffering, even if it means death. I don't agree with that.
See, I think that God would never sacrifice a person for the sake of the relationship. But we do as the church sometimes because we're so concerned about the relationship. The relationship is important and God has got a reconciliation and we want reconciliation, too.
But God also tells us the prudent man or woman hides from danger and he cares about us as individuals. And He has called us to live life abundantly, not to just bear it, you know. And so, I think that we need to really look at that.
And being raised as a pastor's daughter that, you know, I was taught that way. So, it was a really it's been really hard, you know, working in the faith communities really struggles with this. And, you know, this idea that, well, a separation might lead to divorce.
But separation is really functional in these relationships because she needs safety so that she can talk, speak the truth from this other person. And she needs time to see whether or not he's willing to actually get the help that he's been promising he'll get. And they need time to see if he can actually work through that.
Or is he just using a program as another controlling behavior to get her to come back into a relationship? If she waits long enough and we usually say six months and he's mad that she's not letting him back home. He goes right back to all the bad behaviors he was doing before.
And he pulls all the money out of the bank and does all these crazy things. And she has her answer, which is heartbreaking. The women are heartbroken over this because they want their relationships to work.
We cannot emphasize that enough to the faith community. These women want their relationships to work and that they did not sign up for this. They did not sign up for these.
They did not say, “Oh, yes, I am agreeing to get married and be abused.” That's how they agreed to. And he made a promise to love and cherish.
And the Bible commands men to love their wives like Christ loves the church and to lay his life down. That means he gives up his way to bless her, that Jesus came to serve, not to be served. So, his role is one of being the lead servant in the relationship.
He should be the first to be serving her. And how do we respond as women? We feel loved and cherished and cared for when that happens.
My husband's so good at this. I have to be careful if I say I'm thirsty, he's up getting me a glass of water. He's so quick to serve.
But this is the kind of behavior that blesses us. And men are surprised that the very thing they want, the respect, honor, all those kinds of things. They get it by doing the very opposite of what they're doing, by giving up their way, by embracing humility.
And humility is hard because it means it's not about being 50-50 or being fair. It's about going 100 percent or more. So, my husband would share because he leads manuscripts with me.
And he says, you know, guys, you know, if Stacy's at 20 percent, then I need to go 180. I need to go in and fill in that gap for her. And there's times I do that for him, too, because unhealthy relationships like that's what we do for women.
But an abusive relationship, that's never what happens. And an abuser has and this is very popular, a narcissistic view of his world. He may not realize that it doesn't mean he has narcissistic personality disorder.
Those guys are very different and they stick out sore thumbs, but they all behave narcissistic, narcissistically, meaning their world revolves around them. So, they want you to manage their emotions. They blame you for when they're unhappy.
And even if you weren't even present, when whatever happened, that he's unhappy that he still blames you for it, which doesn't make sense. It's that crazy making. It's like, “Wow, how am I the cause of this when this happened at work? I don't understand.” You know, so there's all that craziness that goes on.
But, you know, I'm so honored to get to walk alongside men and women in their process of change and their aha moments and their realization that God loves them and that God values them and that they're important and they're regarded. And that because of that, abuse is never OK. It's never OK.
Laura Dugger: (34:10 - 35:21)
The few follow ups with that, then to go back to an earlier point, you're making a connection for me where I'm thinking back to a few episodes. It was one was with Leslie Vernick and one was with Dr. Diane Langberg. So, I can't remember who said this.
I can link to both in the show notes, but it's what you're speaking to that as we study the scriptures and we see Christ likeness and how to become more Christ like and what God really says about these topics. They were pointing out he cares about the individual more than the institution. Yeah.
And so, I think there's a lot of re-education for us in the faith community, unfortunately. But then also two follow up questions. One, as you're talking about narcissism or a narcissistic outlook, is there ever from your experience?
I'm familiar with some of my friends who are in relationships like that or acquaintances that I know. Is there ever hope for the husband who has narcissistic tendencies or personality disorder to repent? Have you ever seen that?
Stacey Womack: (35:21 - 37:16)
Absolutely. We have men who've done a really great job of working away from being self-focused and selfish. That's really what it is.
They read these journals and we make comments on them and they have to come up with the beliefs that gave them permission to behave this way. So, we had one guy and you could just see a selfishness that I always wrote. The belief is I'm most important.
I've read it every on every single journal. And he finally came to group after a few months because I really realize I'm really selfish. And so, as we help them to see this, it begins to change things and they begin to make different choices and try new things.
As someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, like any personality disorder, those are not medicated. They can't be medicated and it takes a longer time. So, I've had some training on narcissistic personality disorder and I recognize those guys.
Any of those guys generally with personality disorders because they don't see themselves. So, the group laughs at things I say, but they don't understand why they're laughing. And those guys need like seven years of counseling with someone who specializes in narcissistic personality disorder.
If they're willing to do the work that that they can actually make changes. And there's a gentleman who who's travels the country speaking on this. He says that's his favorite group of population he works with.
I can't say the word narcissistic personality disorder men. And he says, you would like this man today. But he had like multiple failed businesses.
He'd been very successful, but they're failing businesses, failing marriage. And he worked with them and you don't work with them the same as just typical counseling. It's not the same because they don't see themselves.
So, we need more people who specialize in that.
Laura Dugger: (37:16 - 38:12)
I agree with you there. And it's just helpful to have that reminder of hope. Even this morning in my quiet time, I was reading in the Gospels and it was Jesus saying and everything he says is true.
That with man, it seems impossible, or it is impossible. But with God, we know that all things are possible. So, appreciate the way you answered that.
And then also a follow up would be we heard that awful story of what happened with the physical safety when you're looking at physical abuse. But then, Stacey, would you recommend wives have the same boundaries? Are they taking time away to physically protect themselves if there's any type of abuse?
If there is financial abuse, let's say, are they given the same recommendations as somebody who is in an emotionally abusive relationship?
Stacey Womack: (38:13 - 40:49)
Well, the emotional abuse is always there. You don't have any other forms of abuse without emotional abuse. So, our women, we talk about boundary setting and different boundaries they can begin trying.
But oftentimes the only boundary that actually works to be able to say for us to be able to make it, you need to go get help. And while you're getting help, we need to be separated so they're not focusing on one another. So not all of our women separate.
Some of the women try to work through it while he's still in the home. My experience is that it slows the process down, extremely slows the process down because they're still focusing on one another. And he's coming home and he's sharing with us how great the program is.
But then he's going home and he's angry and he's taking it out on her. So, it creates some unsafety for her. And I just want to say this because I think a lot of people don't understand that there's physical safety and then there's emotional safety.
And we downplay the emotional safety. But emotional safety is as important as physical safety. So, I have some pastors who think that if we share things like this, that we're going to be making victims.
That's not true. I don't relate to the books that are out there. You know, oh, yeah, I've experienced that.
It's not going to make victims. You either relate to it or you don't. But this emotional safety might mean needing to separate from that person.
Not because you fear their physical abuse when you haven't been physical. But a lot of our women say he's never been physical, but I'm fearful of him. And so in order for her to get some healing and some help while she waits to see whether or not he gets help and she's really hoping he will.
She needs that space. And so, yes, I think that in a lot of scenarios, separation is a key. And then we have some couples where the where the husband does is not willing to do the work he needs to do, but he's not controlling the finances.
So, they remain married but separated for the rest of their lives. Not very many couples can do that because most abusers are going to control finances. So, but that's why I was saying it's not our place to tell a woman to leave or to stay.
That's not our job. It's our job to walk alongside them when they seek God for what they should be doing and what boundaries they should be setting. And they can try a lot of different things before it gets to that point.
And it just there's no easy answer for this.
Laura Dugger: (40:50 - 41:05)
It's very complex. Yes, it's very complex. But even when you say there's a lot of things they could try.
Could you give a few examples or is there a place on your website where they can go to get some ideas and some help for those earlier stages?
Stacey Womack: (41:06 - 43:43)
Well, we talk about this in our journey class again, which is free. You can join at any time in our class on boundaries. And so, it depends on the severity of abuse that's going on.
But most women, when there has been physical abuse, will start off with things like and we talk about a boundary has to have a consequence. Otherwise, it's not really you can't. It doesn't work.
But these men are boundary breakers. So, a boundary would be like saying, if you continue to yell at me and call me names, I'm going to leave and go to my friend's house. So, there's the boundary and there's a consequence for breaking.
But then we also realize when we're talking to them that he may decide at some point he's not going to let you leave. So now he's blocking the door. So, then it might be, you know, if you're going to treat me this way, I'm no longer going to cook meals or do your wash.
And it usually works its way down to I'm no longer going to have sex with you. I'm not going to sleep in the same room with you. And once you get to that point, the only other thing you can do is do a physical separation with the heart to actually reunite.
That's what these women want. And some of our couples have been separated for three years. But the husband is like, let her head home.
And he's doing his work and they're interacting again. But he doesn't move back home for three years because he's committed to giving her whatever space and time she needs to heal. Because he recognizes that he's the one that's caused unsafety.
And so, what is three years if you can have a healthy relationship for the rest of your life? And so that's what we were looking for our men to do. It's like even if you're disappointed, if she's saying, I'm not ready for you to move back.
And you can say, I feel disappointed, but you know what? I get it. And whatever you need, I'm willing to do that.
That's accountability. That's humility. And really, they need to have other men who are mentoring them to hold them accountable.
And again, not a lot of people are taught this. And so having the right mentor even for this is really important. Even a right counselor for them to work with their childhood issues.
But those are some ideas for some boundaries. Boundaries always have to have consequences. But even if a woman gets a protection order or restraining order, most of those are violated.
So, we tell the women be prepared to call the police when he violates it by texting you or by sending you a card with money in it or putting flowers on your car. Or coming to the church service that you put in the restraining order that he wasn't supposed to come to. So, you need to be ready to hold him accountable because the abuser doesn't believe you're going to actually follow through.
Laura Dugger: (43:43 - 44:32)
Do you love The Savvy Sauce? Do you gain anything when you listen? Did you know that the two ways we earn money to keep this podcast live is through generous contributions from listeners and from our paying sponsors?
That means we can promote your business and you're still supporting The Savvy Sauce. It's a win-win. Please email us today at info@thesavvysauce.com to inquire about pricing for sponsoring each episode. Thank you for your consideration.
Well, and what if somebody is listening right now and they're automatically assuming, well, this isn't happening to anyone I know and it's certainly not happening in our church. What would you like to directly say to them?
Stacey Womack: (44:33 - 45:40)
I'd like to let them know that statistically one in three women experience domestic violence, stalking, or rape by an intimate partner. And the statistics in the church are no less than they are outside of the church. So, every church has families in their church who look like the perfect couple.
When I started leading a group in my own church, I was so shocked. I kept telling myself, stop being shocked when I have another woman privately come up to me and tell me that they were in an abusive relationship because they just, they were involved, and they were just leading Sunday school. And they were, just look like this beautiful family and you would never have known.
There was no way to know that this was actually going on. So, you know, the reality is that it's happening. We're just not aware of it.
It wasn't on my radar before God called me into this work. I didn't think it was affecting my life. I didn't think of much thought.
But the reality is I feel like it's worse now than ever and not necessarily more physical abuse, but just abuse in general, the misuse of things to gain control.
Laura Dugger: (45:42 - 46:18)
Well, and I appreciate the way you helped give a paradigm shift. You offered this on page 36 in your book and you quote saying, “At ARMS, we do not believe God considers domestic violence and abuse an adult issue. Instead, we believe he sees it as child abuse. We are his children.”
So, Stacey, with that in mind, how does this clarify how we can respond appropriately, and in a Christlike manner, when someone does report abuse?
Stacey Womack: (46:20 - 47:51)
Well, I think a lot of times when women actually have the courage to tell you what's going on, it's a very courageous thing to do. She's risking a lot by telling you.
So, we really need to listen carefully and believe her. And I'm thinking about how, you know, that I'm trying to think now. How did you word your question so I can answer it correctly?
If you think about that example you gave, if your child was being beaten, harassed and abused in school and came home crying, you wouldn't just sit in your chair and say, go back and pray harder and win them over by your quiet and gentle spirit. We would go down and we would ask the school, what are you doing about this? Who's doing this and what are you doing about it?
And if they didn't do anything, we wouldn't think twice to remove our child from that environment. But in these situations where you're working with two adults, she may not be ready to leave. She's just sharing with you that this is going on.
She actually is hoping you'll go talk to him so that you'll fix him. But that is not a safe thing for you to do. And she may not realize that.
I tell pastors that all the time. You don't, but you're not going to go to him to check out her story or go talk to him like she's asked you to. Instead, you're going to go, what can we do for you right now?
Let's get you some help. And there'll be a time where we can address things with him. But right now is not that safe time.
So, let's get you connected with an organization that can help you give you the resources that you need to begin your journey of healing and discovering what God wants you to do.
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 48:07)
That's good. And also, this is a tricky question, but what are your views for having biblical reasons for divorce, specifically as it relates to those types of abuse that you shared with us?
Stacey Womack: (48:08 - 50:27)
Sure. You know, I think God understood that divorce would happen. That's why it got written into the law.
And it says, “Because it was the hardness of hearts.” So, it wasn't God's design. It wasn't the way God wanted it to be, but that there was made allowances for this.
And when people and women are often quoted, God hates divorce. They're not really giving the whole scripture and Malachi in the amplified version. It says, “God hates divorce and marital separation and him who covers his wife, his garment with violence. Therefore, keep a watch on your spirit, that it may be controlled by my spirit, that you deal not treacherously and faithfully with your marriage mate.”
So, we actually got some really good articles that go in depth on the original Hebrew, that Malachi verse was written in there. But, you know, I do believe that someone is breaking the marriage covenant to love, cherish, lay his life down for when they bring abuse to the relationship.
Again, God would wish and hope that we would humble our hearts, not be stiff necked and submit to Him and what he's trying to teach us and grow us in. But He does not force us. And so that leaves women in these situations very little choices if their husband is unwilling to get the help that he needs.
So, I am all for divorce. And I know that that marriage is hard. And my husband and I have been married for 44 years and we've gone through our struggles.
And there are times that I thought this isn't going to work. But you know what? We hung in there because we knew that for us, because it wasn't an abusive situation, that we need to stay in there and work on it.
And we did. And we're so glad we did. So, believe me, I'm not promoting divorce.
I just know that there has to be a place and known for it because of sin in the world. And again, it's heartbreaking and it destroys not just individuals, families, but our society is being destroyed by the breakdown of the family. And abuse is one of the most insidious things.
It starts in the home and it's cyclical. So, it's passed on from one generation to the next.
Laura Dugger: (50:29 - 50:38)
Well, so, Stacey, how can we become more aware of abuse that is happening all around us? And what can we do that's genuinely helpful?
Stacey Womack: (50:40 - 52:13)
Well, I think getting the education, you know, in my book that on the front lines of abuse strategies for the faith community, just a little book. But has a ton of information in it is a good place to start. And I have some do's and don'ts in there.
But, you know, I think that when you might recognize someone's being in an abusive relationship by the way her husband or whatever is speaking to her. But she doesn't see it because most victims would never call themselves a victim of abuse because they don't relate to that at all. That's not how they would define it.
So, I think sometimes just privately sharing with them. No, that behavior was really abusive. And she may not like that.
She might even get upset. But I think just being honest with the fact that this is going on. And I encourage pastors to preach about abuse and really abuse oppression.
And the Bible has a whole lot to say about oppression. There's already sermons out there that they can pull from. I suggest pastors preach on it twice a year.
So, October's domestic violence awareness month. And then maybe run Mother's Day again, not on Mother's Day, but around Mother's Day. Talk about it again, not as a caveat to relationships where it's just mentioned in a sermon, but an actual entire sermon on this issue.
And I can promise you that the church gets the education they need. They don't have to be experts, but they need to know what resources are out there for them and they make it safe. Both men and women will come forward and ask for help.
So, we need just to be a listening ear and care and ask how we can help.
Laura Dugger: (52:14 - 52:29)
I think that's a good practical encouragement that you've shared. And I want to add all of these links in our show notes. So, is there anywhere else that we can go to after this conversation to continue learning from you?
Sure.
Stacey Womack: (52:30 - 53:32)
We have our website that has a ton of information on it, abuserecovery.org. So, there's just so much on there. We have blogs and we have all kinds of information that the faith community can download for free.
Whether you're just in the community or you're a church leader, there's all kinds of things you can download. We have a pastor's packet. There's just we'll give you other books to read that you can do more education around this again.
I know as my father being a pastor, that pastors are busy enough. We're not asking pastors to do more than what they're doing. We're just asking them to be educated and know where they can send their people that's safe, where they're going to get sound and supportive help.
And to just be open to looking at things from a little bit different perspective. But our website just has so much on it that they can get for free. And again, our women's intervention groups, our recovery groups are free.
Laura Dugger: (53:33 - 53:49)
Thank you for sharing that. And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so, Stacey is my final question for you today.
What is your savvy sauce?
Stacey Womack: (53:50 - 54:39)
What is my savvy sauce? You know, when I think about how God called me into this ministry in the end, no matter what we do, I think it's about obedience to God. And so, this was not on my radar.
I would never have chosen it. And so, for me, it's about being obedient to what God has called me to do, even when it's hard and even when it's unpopular. And walking in that so that when I stand before God, I can say I did what you asked me to, to the best of my ability, even with all my flaws.
So that's really, I think, my heart is to be that way. Be a leader like Moses, who God says he was the most humble man who ever lived. I'd love to be like that with the heart of David and the boldness of Paul and on and on and on.
Laura Dugger: (54:39 - 59:13)
So, yeah, I love that. Well, I told you before we pressed record that I have experienced so much fruit of the spirit from you already with your gentleness. And this is not the first time we tried recording.
We prayed together that God would do immeasurably more than all we could ever ask or imagine through this conversation, because we had so many technical difficulties and even had to reschedule the date for this. But Stacey, I'm so grateful you persevered because you are well-spoken and you tackle this extremely difficult topic with wisdom and grace. And so, I'm very grateful I got to learn from you today.
And I believe God's going to continue working through you, even for the saving of many lives. So, thank you for your work and thank you for being my guest. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
Related Episodes
