272. Pathway to Joy and Happiness in Parenting with Amy Rienow
Psalm 144:15b NKJV "Happy are the people whose God is the Lord!"
*Transcription Below*
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Will you share your story of God revealing a spirit of perfectionism was sneaking into motherhood?
How can we recognize our own spirit of perfectionism and what can we do about it?
What is one thing you've found every mom needs more of and how can we get it?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: MidwestFoodBank.org
Amy Rienow's first ministry is loving her husband and nurturing faith in their seven children. She and Rob founded and lead Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry created to equip parents, encourage couples, and help families live for Christ. She attended the University of Illinois, followed by Wheaton College Graduate School, where she earned her MA in Clinical Psychology. She is a licensed clinical professional counselor. Amy has her hands full as a mom, partnering with Rob, and serving in the women’s and worship ministries at church.
Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode:
Special Patreon Re-Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Five Love Languages with Dr. Gary Chapman
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
182 Things I Wish I'd Have Known Before My Child Became a Teenager with Dr. Gary Chapman
220 Cultivating Healthy Family Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman
245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow
230 Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 - 1:43) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to my inspiring guest for today, Amy Rienow. Now, that last name may sound familiar because Amy's husband, Dr. Rob Rienow, has been a previous guest multiple times, actually. So, I'll make sure and link his previous episodes in the show notes, along with other episodes that we recommend in this conversation.
Amy and Rob are founders of Visionary Family Ministries, and they are parents to seven children. Amy is also an author, podcaster, and she's practiced as a licensed clinical professional counselor in the past, so she's going to combine all of this experience together, and her wisdom just pours out as now she's going to seek to encourage us to seek the Lord and follow His guidance, especially as parents in our parenting journey. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Amy.
Amy Rienow: (1:44 - 1:51) Hi Laura. I'm so glad to do this with you. It's been a while since we've talked about it, and I'm excited to be here today.
Laura Dugger: (1:51 - 2:00) Well, I'm thrilled to have you join, and I'd love to just dive in and hear how did Jesus Christ become your personal Lord and Savior?
Amy Rienow: (2:01 - 3:39) I love that you start with that question. I grew up in a home with a Christian mom and a non-Christian dad, but they had made an arrangement before they were even married. She did have the wisdom to ask her husband to give her the domain of that, like picking a church, and he was willing to go with us as a family to church, even though he was not a believer, and that was very clear.
But she led me to the Lord when I was about four years old, and I grew up going to church, and that was my first. I feel like I never kind of have a lot of memory of not knowing Jesus, but I would say that my faith increased and became even more my own. I feel like it was always my own, but in high school, I went on a missions trip to Mexico, and I will never forget the experience of being in a very poor town in Mexico, and there was this horrible storm coming in, and all of us Americans were afraid of the storm, and we ran into the church while the service kept going on, and literally none of the Mexican people that were outside in the service, the storm didn't faze them at all.
They just kept going on, and honestly, that was such a pivotal point in my life where I was like, that is the type of faith that I wanted to have. I mean, it really cemented. I feel like that's when the Holy Spirit just helped me to know that that's who I want to be.
I want to be a person of that kind of faith in the Lord that is not budging when the storms come.
Laura Dugger: (3:40 - 4:04) Love that. Thank you for sharing, and since that time, you've added some people to your family, so I'd love to get a snapshot of your family right now and then share some more about motherhood, specifically in one of your books you wrote about recognizing that you had a spirit of perfectionism. So, I'd love to hear more about that because I think it's very relatable.
Amy Rienow: (4:05 - 6:43) Well, my family right now, I've been married to my husband Rob for 30 years. I have seven children, R.W., Lissy, J.D., Lainey, Millie, Ray, and Rush. And R.W. is turning 28 this year. He has one little boy.
His name is Cliff, so that's my grandbaby number three. My daughter Lissy is married to Bond, and she's about to have baby number three, so that will be my fourth grandbaby. She has Avey, Bondy, and then this little new one on the way. And then my son J.D. just got married to Brooke last summer, so that is exciting. We're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have Brooke in our family. Lainey is graduating from Olivet. She graduated in three years, which we're really proud of. Millie is a junior.
Ray is a freshman, and Rush is in fifth grade, and I still homeschool those three. They kind of do part-time at a Christian school here, and then I homeschool the rest of the time. So, that is my current family.
It's expanding. As you will find out when you get to the stage, expansions come very quickly, and it's exciting, exciting times. But about that spirit of perfectionism, actually, even before I became a mom, I was convicted of a spirit of perfectionism because I had always been very critical of myself.
I had a very critical spirit. Just I don't know if it was, you know, the peer pressure, what those components are. I'm a middle child, but I just tended to critique myself very harshly.
And after I was married, even about a year, the Lord showed me how, because of my husband and I were becoming one flesh, I was really turning that critical spirit onto him. But then there was a book called The Fly Lady. She is a home organization.
I think I mention it in my book, but that is when I really began to understand that I struggled with perfectionism, and that's often what kept me paralyzed. It often keep me with that, you know, I would say engaging with that critical spirit, communicating a lot of criticisms, whether it be to my children or to my husband. So, that was, you know, so it started early in marriage, but by the time I was well into motherhood, I was really starting to understand what this was. What the critical spirit was, and it really was a spirit of perfectionism.
Laura Dugger: (6:44 - 6:52) Well, and the Lord met you there, and there is a story that you share related to picture frames. Would you be willing to tell that?
Amy Rienow: (6:52 - 9:07) Yeah. So, my daughter, Lissy, was graduating from high school, and it was classic me. I was trying to like get this massive graduation party together, and I'm sort of a procrastinator and life is busy.
So, it's like we are, okay, I got to get this done before this big party, this big event, and had a friend who was a decorator to kind of give me an idea of what to do. And so, my husband and really the whole family was kind of working overtime to get everything ready for this big event. And he had helped my, we had this huge wall that had to be that my decorator friend suggested a gallery wall.
So, we had all of these pictures up and I was looking at it late at night, kind of exhausted. We're talking about past midnight and I know it wasn't just my husband helping. I had JD helping.
I don't remember where I was, but we were just all working hard to get this ready for this party. And I was laying there as past midnight looking at that wall and so frustrated, like so frustrated because all those pictures I kept looking at like, Oh, this is going to be a mess. Like they're all, they're not like, you know, they're not command stripped.
Right. And so they're all going to be, I just felt like, what have I done? It's looking crooked already.
And it was so frustrating to me. And that is when the Holy spirit completely convicted me with just like, Amy, you should be looking what's in those pictures and not whether they're crooked or not crooked. Like, first of all, like all the family has been helping me with this vision.
Right. And it's not really their vision. It's my vision.
They've all been supportive of me in front of me. It was a wall of all the memories of all these beautiful pictures. And here I was so focused on my right angles and having it look perfect for the crowd coming in at the graduation party, as opposed to what everything on that wall represented.
And so, it was a very convicting moment to me of just like, I have a choice. Am I going to embrace everything in those pictures and everything my family's done to help us get to this special day? Or am I going to come in and be fixated on how crooked those picture frames look to me right now?
Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:19) Appreciate you sharing that. And I'm wondering for any parent, especially listening, if they find themselves identifying with that spirit of perfectionism, what can we do with that?
Amy Rienow: (9:20 - 11:11) It's a challenging one because I think our culture promotes it. And I also think I'm on the flip side of the positive side of it. Let me just say, I believe there's a vision of perfect in our hearts because we were created for perfect.
We're created for heaven. And the Bible says that no eye has seen, no ear has heard, or no mind has even conceived what God has prepared for those who love him. So, there's this drive for perfect that I think is very good and right.
And so, we don't want to give up like excellence, or we don't want to give up that we have that drive. The problem is that the enemy, in fact, I've actually done more research on this. There's really can be a demonic spirit of perfectionism where we're trying to create heaven here.
We're trying to think in our own flesh and our own strength that we can take care of all of our sin, take care of all of our flaws. We can take care of our children's flaws. We can take care of our husband's flaws.
That is actually from the enemy in the sense that we believe in our own strength. And you can look at that through history. It's basically a form of humanism that we can fix everything in ourselves.
God makes it very clear in scripture that that is not possible. So, I think understanding this tension, that it's okay to want things to be wonderful, that's not bad. But what's bad is when we leave God out of the picture and we put this pressure on ourselves and on the people around us to accomplish what only can God can do.
And we don't accept God's timing. We don't have patience with who we are, our sinful nature and really put our trust in Christ and not in ourselves.
Laura Dugger: (11:12 - 12:56) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses. Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org, or listen to episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.
You also write in one of your books that there's one thing that you found every mother needs. So, what is it and how can we get it?
Amy Rienow: (12:56 - 14:56) That one thing is joy, joy, joy. And, and I like to use the word happiness, honestly, because I feel like that happiness got a bad rap, I say, in Christian world for like a while, in my opinion. I don't know if it's still that way, but so often I heard sermon saying, you know, like we don't want happiness.
We want joy. Like there's these two different major things, like, you know, almost like a rejection of happiness for this deeper spiritual joy. Well, finally, the Lord really convicted me that deep, deep inner joy that doesn't show is an oxymoron.
Like, you really should see happiness. You should feel happiness. You should feel those things.
If you ever come across someone's like, oh no, I have a deep joy, but like, there's no evidence of it. Well, that's a red flag. That's a problem.
The Lord, you know, in the King James version, it actually says happier people whose God is the Lord. And I believe every mom desires that happiness. And sometimes they don't even really know that that's the most important element that they want in their home, you know, because it's so easy to get, I don't know, sidetracked on things that feel more important that you kind of forget how important happiness is.
And, you know, we can take it for granted. I feel like very easily because often when our kids are little and we don't have not entered that world of, whether it be academic or whatever into the greater world, let's just say in your home, you can kind of have like a natural happiness and joy that's just there, but it's so easily stifled. When we start putting our self into the world of either comparing ourselves to other moms, comparing our kids to other kids, stressing about the expectations or what we think our kids need.
We can often find that happiness slipping away. And I believe we do not want that to happen in our homes and in our hearts.
Laura Dugger: (14:57 - 15:08) And so how can we get more of that, both as parents and how can we train our kids to be happy and joyful as well?
Amy Rienow: (15:09 - 17:18) It's such a good question and a hard question. Cause I don't think it's just like we can snap our fingers and just do that. I think that it's really important that we are seeking the Lord and helping him order our priorities.
You know, God gave us 10 commandments for a reason. And if you look at the first one, it says, “You know, you'll have no other gods before me, you'll keep him first.” And part of the reason why I think that commandment is both like the first and also in many ways, very abstract, like, you know what I mean?
How do you even do that? You know, it's confusing, I think, but I think that's what the Lord wants is of a seeking of helping us keep him first. Because when we help to keep God first, number one, and number two, we don't have idols that we bow down to, that we place above him. Like, let's take an example of motherhood.
Let's say the idol might be, um, I have to have super smart children. Let's put it that way. You know, your joy is going to be robbed when you keep sacrificing to that idol, because that's a trap.
Like the enemy wants to trap you there to make the wrong sacrifices. And that is why I think God knows this. Like he's telling us right in those 10 commandments, you know, you need to keep me first.
You can have no, do not worship to idols. Because when you're making the sacrifices to eternal God, who is the author of joy, the author of love, the author of peace, those are the things he gives back to you. No other idol can give you peace.
No other idol can give you joy. So, I think when we look at the lack of joy that we see in a lot of our homes in our culture, it's because we've been ensnared into an idolatry where we're making the wrong sacrifices. We're sacrificing things that we don't realize the consequence of that until we're in it.
And we're like, wait, this didn't produce the happiness and joy that I expected it to produce. Cause we were tricked.
Laura Dugger: (17:19 - 17:27) Do you have any examples from your own life or friend's stories where that really comes to life?
Amy Rienow: (17:27 - 21:22) Oh boy. There's lots of examples and lots of friends stories, but I'm going to say one that's more of a story that I'm well aware of and not, you know, personally walk hand with. But I think it's always struck with me because it was so painful story. You know, I grew up, I've raised a lot of athletes in my home and my son, especially my first born very athletic boy.
And we were kind of at the beginning of the cusp of how important travel was, you know what I mean? Travel baseball and travel, you know, sports in general. And there's that pressure.
You need to choose this. You need to do this or else you are going to, you know, ruin the advantages for your child. If you don't do this, even if choosing that is going to mean you're going to sacrifice family time, you're going to sacrifice finances.
You are going to sacrifice your Sundays. I could go on and on. The world will tell you you have to do this in order to get to the prize that you're looking for, or your son is going to be disadvantaged.
If you don't choose that. And it took a lot to be like, no, we're not going to make, we're not going to make that trade. And there was a lot of pressure.
There's a lot of pressure with our son, you know what I mean? With him feeling sometimes neglected and having to deal in that relationship. So, it's not like that's immediate happiness or immediate joy, you know, but what did it did allow us to disciple him through all that.
It allowed us to see God, you know, use him, whatever team he was on, give him a lot of joy in sports. The blessing of it is that we saw him in high school, you know, excel in baseball, always rise to the top, win character awards. He eventually did go on to play college baseball and AIA, not like D1, but he got to play, got to use that gift to pay for his education.
But most importantly, he was a joyful, happy kid. Baseball didn't control his life. And I just praise God for that.
And in contrast, he, at the same, his age, same age level, there were these two boys who were twins were very well known for being top, top, top, top players. And they were just elevated in many circles we were in. And, you know, you, when you're in the baseball world, baseball moms will understand this, you know who the top players are.
You see the name, like, you know, when your son's in the paper for something, you know, he was listed in the number of top of DuPage kids. And obviously that's a feather in your cap and you're really proud of that. These boys were top of the top D1, but I'll never forget.
They went to different D1 schools and one of them ended up taking his own life his freshman year. I believe it just the most devastating thing. I could not, I cannot speak to any of those situations.
I don't know his family background. I do not know any history of at all. All I can say is it hit me really hard in the sense that these were the boys that so many parents were envying, envying of their success and of their status.
And that was so jolting to, to know that they'd received, you know, hit so many of these incredible hurdles that every parent thinks they want their kids to achieve. But obviously there was something amiss because there was a lack of joy, lack of happiness. I don't know the whole story.
But that just strikes me again of just how important it is to again, go back to keeping God first, make sure you're making the right sacrifices.
Laura Dugger: (21:23 - 22:43) That's a good word. It's such a sobering story, but making sure we're making the right sacrifices or really listening to God's counsel. That reminds me where I was this morning, Psalm 25.
I read it in the amplified version, but it was talking specifically that some of his guidance comes from his word. Like it's amazing. It's incredible.
It's important to pray and to be around others who are godly and do other spiritual rhythms, but there's nothing like reading his word to hear from him. And let me try and find the verses. Verse 14 in the amplified version says, “The secret of the wise counsel of the Lord is for those who fear him and he will let them know his covenant and reveal to them through his word, it's deep inner meaning.”
And the next verse, just the first part goes on to say, “My eyes are continually toward the Lord.” And that was such powerful takeaway this morning, but then I'm hearing it through the way that these lives played out. Because when you look, is it my understanding correct?
That you did travel sports, but they were not, your children chose not to do Sundays.
Amy Rienow: (22:44 - 25:52) Well, we did not even do travel sports for my oldest. It was back in the day when park district actually, you could, you know, like there were enough kids. So, we, my son did only park district all the way through eighth grade, but then he kind of, because he was like young for his age, he had one sort of gap year in between high school before he started like high school sports.
And that's when he did play a travel sport. We found one that honestly was not good at all. I don't think the level was any better than park district, but they accepted the no Sunday situation.
So, that's what we did. And you know, it was a losing team. Like he was on losing teams, like most of his baseball career until he got to high school.
So, it really was you know, the opposite of what the world said he needed. And yet he was able to, to rise and, and achieve. And honestly his high school experience was being able to always, he was a starter all the time and he his teams won.
So, it was like years of like, not, you know, kind of paying these prices I would say. And that's neither here or there. The winning or the losing is really not important.
The important was keeping baseball in its proper place, enjoying the gifts that God has given you, not letting, listening to the world. I'll just throw this in because we are what you said about sound. First of all, I love the amplified version.
So, that blessed me that you read the amplified, but you know, seeking the council, you, we must be as parents in his word, like regularly listening to how he's speaking to us because we also, it's so interesting. Rob and I live in a very interesting world. We had one foot, especially back then, one foot in the homeschool world, one foot in the public school area, public school community, lots of public school friends.
And then also the Christian school is where my son played. But you know, if we'd go to homeschool conference, there were tons of messages that you should not have your kids in sports at all. Sports are wrong.
Sports are a waste of time, you know? So, that was a strong message of sort of like condemnation almost for being in sports at all. So, my point is there was no one community that said, okay, this is the way, you know what I mean?
We had to seek the Lord, you know, for ourselves, for our family, for our son, knowing this was his love and his giftedness and continue to look for wisdom and how he should grow in those gifts. You know, and how he wanted to use it in his life, but not let it take over his life. And isn't that the lesson for all of us?
So, anyway, it depended on that seeking the counsel of him, both myself with my husband and then also with our W. It wasn't like we kept him out of the picture. We were praying the three of us for wisdom and all those things.
Laura Dugger: (25:53 - 26:42) I love hearing that because you're right. It's not about black and white decision of travel sports are always wrong or always right. But the main takeaway is seek the Lord because he has wisdom for our individual unique situation.
And I want to go back and close a few other loops. Sure. Please.
One of those being that even with perfectionism or with comparison or when we're choosing godly values that may contradict worldly values, I'm hearing a theme that there's a, it's a fight and that there's a spiritual battle. And you even said you had researched some of this, Amy, how do you personally learn about that and be aware of the spiritual realm?
Amy Rienow: (26:44 - 30:42) We, we really, I can't say it enough that we do need to be so aware of the spiritual realm. I didn't understand. I didn't understand in my early years of parenting at how important that was to pay attention to.
And here's the thing there's, I feel like there's the Lord brings us on a path along the way with the knowledge we need at the time. And then he wants us to stretch and grow and learn a little bit more. So, there was a season in my life.
When especially we began homeschooling, the Lord brought us into all these new teachings that we didn't really understand was so powerful. It was so wonderful. We were very blessed by all of those teaching and the conferences that we were attending.
But what began to happen for me is that the perfectionism that I knew was there kind of gotten folded into that teaching because all of a sudden I kind of wore as a spiritual, like pride that I, I called it my noble list. Now I, when I talk about my book, Not So Perfect Mom, I, this is not in the book, but this is part of my talks. Like I kind of replaced the world's list of great athlete, great, you know, so smart, all those things with my noble list.
My child will have wonderful character. My child will read God's word. My child will know what it means to serve, but you see what I mean?
We're still dealing with a list. God had to call me out of that way of thinking back to the importance of a relationship with him, meaning for myself and meaning for my kids. Because when my oldest was 12, I was starting to see that we could be raising a Pharisee. If we keep focusing on this noble list, like if he knows all of his Proverbs, if he obeys perfectly, if he, you know what I mean?
Like life is not supposed to be, God never called us to do that. He desires a daily relationship with us. And that's what he desires for our kids.
So, that was beginning to suffocate my oldest for sure. And my, I would say, and my daughter right underneath him because they felt the weight of this, you know, we need to arise to this, this standard. So, like that perfectionism can take on this, this type of robe that makes you feel very noble about it.
Especially if you're in certain circles, like spiritual circles, where if your kids look right, dress right. You know, say yes, ma'am and yes, sir. Then we're all assuming that they're wonderful and we're not really getting to the heart underneath, but that is, there's a tension and a spiritual battle.
That's far. That's super important to pay attention to. And the way the Lord showed that to me is that I would often say the phrase in conversation.
Oh, it's a battle. Oh, it's a battle. We're in a battle.
I'm the Lord. I don't know what they gave me a vision. That's too strong word, but I had this sort of, I, I guess it's a vision.
I imagine that I was on, I was sitting in a coffee, like at a table with a friend drinking coffee. And we were just, you know, chatting and yet that coffee table was in the middle of this bloody battlefield. And the Lord was just kind of showing me, this is how your attitude is about saying that it's in a battle.
Like you're sitting here, just talking with your friends, drinking coffee and chatting and laughing. And this is the battlefield. It's all around you.
What are you doing about the battle? You know, when you are following after the Lord, you need to expect opposition. You need to understand that your kids are under spiritual attack.
And if we're not praying and putting on that full armor of God and recognizing it, we're not engaged in it.
Laura Dugger: (30:42 - 31:41) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?
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When you go back to your family of origin, did your father ever find a saving faith in Jesus Christ as well?
Amy Rienow: (31:41 - 33:11) He did. He did actually. That's such a wonderful question. And he did when my husband and I were married for about a year. And he, at Christmas day in front of our whole family, after we were sitting at the table at dinner, he kind of waited for all the gifts to be open and be at a different spot.
And he said, “Well, I opened one more gift today and it was the gift of salvation.” Wow. I still tear up thinking about it and thinking about my older brother's response, who was not an emotional person.
And I saw tears in my older brother's eyes, but I just want to even in saying that, that taught me a lot because even at the time when he accepted salvation, he even said, I don't necessarily believe all the Bible's true. He really, you know, he accepted in faith and now he doesn't, you know, the Lord took him from evolutions. Now he's probably more conservative or believes the Bible in a way that I would say many other Christians maybe wouldn't believe, but I'm saying that it was a process watching him grow.
And my kids don't even understand that, that we call him Bop Bop. He used to be a man who, you know, let the communion plate pass every week. And he was not a believer because they see him so much as a spiritual leader now, but you see how faith moves and how faith changes us.
And we need to be patient with God in ourselves, with our kids, you know, and trust in that walk with Him. Love it.
Laura Dugger: (33:12 - 33:23) Well, I'm going to change gears here a little bit. Yeah. Will you explain attachment and share why you're so passionate about this topic?
Amy Rienow: (33:24 - 37:18) That is, I do feel like I love talking about attachment. I feel like it's an underrated thing to talk about. Some of you might be familiar.
I don't know if any of these names like Mary Ainsworth or the Harlow experience, you remember the monkey Harlow experience. It's most, most kids who've had like even a high school psychology class, know that the story of the monkey who has the wire surrogate mom with the bottle. And then has like the fuzzy mom that doesn't have the bottle and the monkey goes and gets its food from the bottle of the wire mom but continues to go over to the furry surrogate mom for comfort.
That's some of the original psychology on attachment but I was started my professional job in a school with children with behavior disorders and autism. That's one of my first jobs. And, and because of that, I went to different seminars for continuing education.
And one of them was a woman who specialized in attachment. And part of the reason she specialized in attachment because she'd adopted so many children and she was sort of a professional on adoption. And that's when I really did a deeper dive into attachment and specifically something called reactive attachment disorder.
I can't go into that. It would be a long tangent. But she was such an eye-opening time.
And this is even before I had children. But she said that, you know, she couldn't say everything she wanted to about attachment and the effects specifically of daycare on children, because it wasn't politically correct. That she would lose her funding basically, if she gave her true opinion on some of the things that our culture was doing to destroy attachment among families.
And it was just very eye opening to me that, you know, when we get our baby development books, the time that I was having kids, it was What to Expect When You're Expecting and What to Expect for Your One Year Old and all these milestones that moms are looking for. And obviously moms generally love their kids. I will stand by that over and over, you know what I mean?
That's the norm. And, you know, you're told to look for all of these milestones, but really attachment is not even mentioned in this book of how important it is. What are the signs of a securely attached child?
And yet this is so significant. And it's not just in the Christian world that we can recognize this. This is universally known in the psychology world, how important attachment is.
So, let's go back to that spiritual battle. Why is it that that is not discussed? Or why is that not focused in the development book?
Or why is it that if you're going to adopt a child, you're going to learn all about attachment, but that's not something that you may necessarily come into contact with if you're just having your own children. But attachment is essential for all healthy relationships. And specifically attachment with the mother.
I mean, we can use the term primary caregiver. Yes, to other people come in and be a primary care. I'm not saying that, you know. It's not just the mom, but this relationship with the mom, this, this attachment is so significant because God created it that way.
And it, how that relationship and how that attachment happens will have this impact on all the other relationships that your child is going to have in their life. So, it's something that we need to be talking about. And I pray that it becomes more and more common for people to talk about it.
Laura Dugger: (37:18 - 37:25) Well, and I'm even curious that speaker was that Karen Purvis?
Amy Rienow: (37:25 - 38:04) Oh, I don't even remember her name. I apologize. She was not a Christian. She was not a believer.
She, well, if she was, I don't know that. Cause I was, I was listening to her in a secular setting. You know, so she might've been, I don't, so I don't know, but I, the reason why it was so curious to me that the time most of the children on my case list that I had at this school were adopted.
So, I found that so interesting, like, and that was why I went to her seminar to try to understand more that connection of the adoption. And you know, how did that play into some of the problems that these children were, were having.
Laura Dugger: (38:05 - 38:20) Well, and just to go a little bit further with attachment, let's take it from the positive side. What are some proven examples or ways that we can form that healthy attachment with our children and that bonding?
Amy Rienow: (38:21 - 40:38) Yeah, well, a lot of it is just a spending time with your child, you know, and that's why I want to be very gentle here. Cause the world that we live in, I mean, I know for a fact that there are so many moms in situations where they have to go back to work right away. There are difficult circumstances.
And I'm, I am not here to say that then you don't have an attached relationship with child. Cause that is honestly not true. But I will say that if you have any opportunity to be home with your children, please, please, please take that opportunity because your children need that contact with you to form that attachment.
I mean, the number one thing for attachment is presence, time, touch, eye contact, and smiles. I mean, like it is what the baby that interplay that's happening with the baby and the mother and, and the why babies love faces. I mean, like they, we need to have that time with our children.
We need to be the ones to know our children the best that only comes with time. But even a mom who maybe for reasons have to be away from their baby, the important thing is that when you're with them, that you are engaged. You know, I even, I don't have my phone in front of me.
Even the phone takes away attachment. You know, when you're looking at another screen, as opposed to paying attention to that communication with the baby long before they're communicating long for the communicating with words, they are interacting and communicating with you. So, God knew what he's doing when he created mothers with the ability to feed their babies.
Nursing enables attachment, you know, because the baby is dependent on the mother. So, all of these things play into why God created our system the way it is because it was designed not to just physically feed our babies, but to emotionally create this attached, secured relationship where that enables a child to feel safe, feel security.
Laura Dugger: (40:39 - 40:54) Well, that makes me think of another a word that you wisely encourage us. And that is the word affection. So, can you share why this is also important to shower on our children?
Amy Rienow: (40:55 - 43:47) Yes. You know how it is when you become a mom, there's all these new parenting styles out there, things that you get bombarded with, or should I do this? Or, you know, and I think I was really impacted by a Bible, small group where a woman was talking about her six-month-old needing disciplining her six-month-old.
And it hit me really negatively because I just heard a woman who had had like, I think she has 17 children who talked about, you know, there's, you cannot spoil and she used, you cannot spoil anybody under the age of two. I would say it's as much as under three with as far as attention and love and affection, affection, your children need your affection. Again, let's go to how this, how Satan, let's go back to that spiritual battle.
We can keep going back. Cause I often find you can see God's truth with how it's perverted in the world. So, let's look at how we have a sex education system now in so many schools, including in Illinois that tries to teach younger children horrific adult sexual behaviors, correct?
And they are manipulating what needs to, what children do need, which is positive, a non-sexual physical connection with their parents, with their siblings, with aunts and uncles. So, so in some ways I can remember early in my career and either in my development in getting my classes, my masters, you know, in some ways they demonize, you know, like parents are afraid to sometimes have too much physical touch or too much of this because it's almost like, Oh, we can't, you know, we have to make sure our children are more independent, you know, like, like for example, co-sleeping, which builds a lot of affection between parents, which is normal in most cultures and normal throughout history can be viewed as really negative. Like, you know, you gotta get your kid in another room and another, like pushing them out early and yet look at what we see from the world, which is an encroachment of inappropriate touch, inappropriate sexuality at younger and younger ages.
And obviously kids who don't have positive, strong, physical affection are more inclined to fall for Satan's counterfeit. And desire and need touch, but they, they, it's been twisted from the world's perspective.
Laura Dugger: (43:47 - 44:17) Does that make sense? Are you tracking with that? I am.
And it's even making me think of a previous guest, Dr. Gary Chapman, talking about mostly the five love languages of in marriage and how those are displayed. But we also discussed with children and the parent child. And I'm just thinking as you're giving examples of affection, it, it even goes beyond the hugs and kisses and appropriate touch to acts of service and lighting up with them and spending that quality time and all those love languages.
Amy Rienow: (44:18 - 46:16) That's right. As the kids get older, I mean, my, my, we joke about, you know, I have certain sons that, did not want to be touched at all when they were 13, 14. We laughed at my son J.D. like he would want to come give me hugs and he would want to, but it had to always be on his terms.
Like I could never come up, you know what I mean? And how can you, my affection towards him was I'll get you a double cheeseburger. I will make you a milkshake.
That was the way I communicated my affection to him, but it was also my presence in listening to him when he needed to be listening to. There's so many ways as we get older. Right.
And I love Gary Chapman's work as far as like understanding our kids love, love languages, but I'll never forget, you know, I just had JD's wedding and he surprised me with the mother son dance and he had a song ready for me. I'm going to cry again, but it was this wonderful, he had told his siblings that he was probably going to cry on his wedding day when he saw Brooke and when he danced with his mom. And I had so many, and he was really hugging me and holding on and not afraid to be affectionate with me during that dance.
And that's because affection has always been a normal part of our home and a normal part of our relationship. And so, I just want to encourage parents out there not to be afraid of both physical affection when they're young and don't push your child. If your child is needing you or wants hugs, I would say, don't hesitate to give those to them because there is a culture again that pushes kids like, Oh, you shouldn't need that now.
You shouldn't, you're too old for that. Let them determine those boundaries. You give them the hugs and the affection as long as they still want it.
Cause I promise you they're all going to come to a day and they're not gonna want it. And you don't need to worry about if they're looking for that for you, it's a need that, that you can still meet.
Laura Dugger: (46:17 - 46:34) Well, and one other piece of parenting. I know we oftentimes hear mom guilt. I don't know if dads experienced the same thing, but how can we overcome that?
And what do you see as being at the root of struggling with sometimes that false guilt?
Amy Rienow: (46:35 - 49:52) Yes. Well, that I think comes so much again. Well, for me, it came internalized.
I had, I carried some internalized guilt with me, but that's compounded by a culture that puts so many expectations and demands on us as mothers. Where we are bombarded with another ideal, another sense of where we're falling short. And again, I know I keep coming back to the spiritual attack, but the point is I want to lay it out there that sometimes, sometimes moms can feel like, especially in an area, this sounds interesting, but because so many more children have been in daycare or exposed to a lot more developmental things at young ages. If you are like home with your kids, if you feel like, well, gosh, I'm not providing a craft every day.
I'm not, you know, I'm not reading. I went to the library and it literally had this whole campaign on a thousand books before kindergarten. Like, are you kidding me?
And that's the kind of thing. It's like, you're just having a normal mom day and all of a sudden you walk into the library and you get bombarded with what? I'm supposed to read my child a thousand books before, like a new standard that's just put in front of you.
And the enemy uses that to, to make women feel that they're not enough, you know? And first of all, we have to go back to God's word. That says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
And to really understand that, yes, we need to be open to be convicted to sin. But when we are convicted of something that our heavenly father wants us to change, we will experience a freedom and a lightning when we repent. And it'll be like a burden lifted up.
And as soon as you have that revenge, you feel like you've been given a gift. It's not something that's a burden. So, that is always my guide for women.
Like if you are under something that you feel like is a burden that you're carrying around, um, this sense that you're not doing enough or that you're a bad mom, that is not coming from your Heavenly Father. You need to reject that in the name of Jesus Christ, because this sense is clearly from the accuser. The Bible says Satan is an accuser and he stands accusing us, but Jesus is there to, you know, to say, no, that's my child.
They're covered by my love covered by my grace. So, we don't want to live under that over that guilt, bad mom guilt shadow for whatever, you know, God knows our faults. He doesn't expect us not to have faults, and your children are going to have faults and your husband are going to have faults.
So, if we think that the Lord is, you know, carrying around our faults, hanging over this, we need to, we need to be reminded that that's not from him and we have to reject it. And again, we're talking about a spiritual battle. You might have to reject the same lie 20 times a day until you find real freedom from falling for that guilt trap.
Laura Dugger: (49:53 - 50:12) Well, and along those lines, as you talk about engaging in the battle, you encourage us as children to woo our children in this same way that the Lord draws us close to him. So, how can we go and do likewise as the Lord does?
Amy Rienow: (50:12 - 52:09) Woo our children's hearts. Like I think it's important to know that the relationship that we have, our kids will, the more we model our relationship, our parenting off of how our heavenly father parents us, the easier it will be for our kids to kind of what I, I have a visual in my mind that I'm walking with my child's hand and I'm holding Jesus hand and I'm gradually through this parenting, trying to connect my child's hand to Jesus hands.
Like that's the picture that I want to be guiding my parenting, not I'm trying to raise you to be X, Y, Z, da, da, da, da, da. I'm trying to lead you to your Heavenly Savior. So, you're going to walk with Him.
So, Jesus is, you know, there's many components of our relationship with Jesus and the Heavenly Father and Holy spirit. But one of them is that God woos the hearts of his people. When you read scripture, He desired, He's always telling them you walk with Me.
“My burden is easy. My yoke is light.” You know what I mean?
He's, He's showing us this freedom and this love and grace. He's not coming with a sense of, see, you're doing this and this and this and this and this. And that's why. You know what I mean?
Like you see God's everlasting love for his people. And we want to woo our children with that same kind of everlasting love. You know, I always say, say you can, you can demand your kids to obey you.
You can demand your kids to respect you, but no one can demand love. Even our Heavenly Father doesn't demand love. He gives us free will and choice to choose to love him.
And so, we want to remember that with our kids to woo them. We want them to choose to love us. So, we woo our hearts.
You already mentioned Gary Chapman by understanding our kids' love languages. You know, realizing that's part of our job as a parent is to woo their hearts.
Laura Dugger: (52:10 - 53:13) So, I love how you're drawing this out as the Lord being the best parent ever and that we can learn from Him. That was something that I felt like he was really teaching me in my quiet time this week. And I wanted to take it one step further.
So, for me applying that, I just made a note on my phone and now anytime I come across a parenting scripture, I want to put it in this same list and go back and review it and be prayerful that the Lord can change me to be more like Him as a parent. So, I'm just going to share the first verse that inspired me to do this this week is Luke 6:36 and the amplified version again, “Be merciful, responsive, compassionate, tender, just as your Heavenly Father is merciful.” And so, Amy, just as He's a great parent and we can learn from Him, I appreciate you just drawing us back, pointing us to the heart of the Father.
And if we want to continue learning from you after this chat, where would you like to direct us?
Amy Rienow: (53:13 - 55:30) Well, I'd love you to come to our website at visionaryfam.com and listen to us at our podcast, Family Vision. You know, we named it Family Vision kind of like television because television really changed the American family. It did when it first introduced on to the scene and our heart is that family vision.
Our podcasts would help give your family a new vision, a vision from God's word for all that he wants to do in your family. You can also find our books well on our website, but also on Amazon. We have, I brought a couple today, but Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most, which is what you're talking about today.
And this book is very close to my heart because it really was wonderful. It was the easiest book I've ever written because I just felt like it was being able to talk about how God has worked in my own life and my own journey. And it just was the like culmination of so many conversations I've had with moms like all over the country, but really overseas and over the world.
And we're all battling some of the same exact things. So, I just, I would encourage you to pick up Not So Perfect Mom: Learning to Embrace What Matters Most. And then the other book that is, it's not new, it's called Shine Embracing God's Heart for You.
I'm actually leading a group of women through it on a zoom study right now. Um, but I actually wrote this, originally back in 2005 when I was a youth pastor's wife. Um, but really it's all about kind of what I talked about earlier of just, recognizing how to, to trust and believe the Lord.
I said, you know, wholeheartedly with our head and our hearts and our hands and, and really going back to, you know, keeping God first, identifying idols in our life. So, we, you know, the more that we get our own relationship with the Lord centered and we kind of figured that part out. I feel like everything flows from that in our homes, in our marriage, in our other relationships. So, I highly recommend, um, picking up this shine and there's a prayer journal to go with it.
There's a leader's guide. If you'd like to lead a group and that's all on Amazon or at our website.
Laura Dugger: (55:31 - 55:48) Wonderful. As always we'll add the links to that in the show notes for today's episode and Amy, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Amy Rienow: (55:48 - 57:06) I love that question. My Savvy Sauce is actually mentioned in Not So Perfect Mom, but it's when the Lord gave me that quote, “whatever is worth doing is worth doing poorly.” I feel that perfectionism kept me paralyzed so often.
If I couldn't do things exactly the way I thought that they should be in my head, then I was kind of pathetic and wasn't going to do it at all. And so, my encouragement in any area, if you know something is worth doing. Let me give you a practical example really quick on this, even when it comes to like, um, when you're struggling with your marriage. I know I had some issues in my marriage with my husband where I was getting to the point where I didn't even really want to go out on a date, you know, because it was just discouraging and whatever's worth doing is worth doing poorly. So, knowing that, you know, even when my relationships aren't living up to my expectations, or even when I'm feeling hurt, the Lord tells us to press on. Don't, don't stop doing what you know, God wants you to do, um, because you don't think it's living up to your expectations.
Do it. Just do it.
Laura Dugger: (57:07 - 57:38) That's a good word. And Amy, you have so much to share. Our family has benefited so much from the ministry and work that you and Rob do through Visionary Families.
And I am just so grateful for your time and you just to share all of this parenting wisdom. It felt like a mentoring conversation. I loved hearing all the ways that you've been intentional in what you've learned from the Lord. So, thank you for seeking Him.
Thank you for sharing with us and thank you for being my guest.
Amy Rienow: (57:39 - 57:58) Thank you, Laura, for having me. It's been a delight. I love connecting hearts with people who are like-minded.
I love what you're doing with The Savvy Sauce. In fact, my neighbor is one of your devoted followers, and she was so excited to hear about your podcast. So, thank you so much for having me and it's truly an honor and a pleasure to be here.
Laura Dugger: (57:59 - 1:01:13) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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