Special Patreon Release: Purpose in Pain and Suffering with Doug Rumbold
Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted I went astray, but now I keep your word.”
*Transcription Below*
Doug Rumbold is a child of the living God, a loving husband to Jessica, and father to Jada, Oliver, and Pierce. Currently he is the Pastor of Counseling & Discipleship at Northfield Christian Fellowship where he has pastored since 2006. He desires for others to be transformed into Christlikeness through authentic relationships. He holds a biblical counseling certificate from CCEF, a Bachelor’s in Youth Ministry/ Adolescent Studies, and a Master’s of Ministry in Theology.
Connect with Doug on Instagram, Facebook, or schedule a counseling session through his website or order Doug's Book.
When did you experienced your first major loss?
What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?
Will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where He responded with alliteration?
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 1:38) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
I want to say a huge thank you to today's sponsors for this episode, Chick-fil-A East Peoria, and Savvy Sauce Charities.
Are you interested in a free college education for you or someone you know? Stay tuned for details coming later in this episode from today's sponsor, Chick-fil-A, East Peoria. You can also visit their website today at https://www.chick-fil-a.com/locations/il/east-peoria.
Doug Rumbold is my guest today. He is a pastor of counseling and discipleship, and he has recently written a book entitled Presence Over Pain. With Doug's biblical foundation and his sense of humor, he's now going to share some personal stories of suffering and God's continued faithfulness.
He illustrates how a yearness of God is oftentimes born through trial. So, regardless of what each of us are walking through today, Doug's going to remind us that we have the opportunity to turn toward Christ. Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Doug.
Doug Rumbold: (1:39 - 1:42) It's exciting to be here, even virtually.
Laura Dugger: (1:42 - 2:02) Well, and its always kind of special to have a local friend join me as a guest on the podcast. But for those who don't know you yet, I think it would be really helpful to hear your story and gain some context around what led you to write this book. So, will you just begin by sharing your story with us?
Doug Rumbold: (2:03 - 6:09) Yeah, I love stories in general. I think when I look at Scripture, three-quarters of it, roughly, is a narrative. It's a story.
And so, God's heart for story is just critical, even in His communication of truth and His love for us. So, it means everybody's story matters. So, my little story matters.
And I think mine's an interesting one. To begin with, I was born and raised in Morton, Illinois. And I was born the seventh of eight children.
So, my parent’s kind of did this, like, unbelievable quantity of births in a short amount of time. I'm not a woman, so I don't understand how this works. But I assume that having eight children in 10 years is crazy.
And they somehow managed to do that. So, I grew up in a loving Christian home. My dad was a phenomenal example of intention and direct when it came to conflict, merciful and forgiving when it needed to be called upon.
My mom was and still is somebody who she could have a conversation with anyone. I love my mom, her ability to just dive deep into conversation. I remember my college years.
My friends from college would actually love to come home to be with my parents, which is kind of odd. A bunch of college guys like, “Hey, can we come back from the big city of Chicago and go hang with your parents in the farm town?” Sure.
Yeah, enjoy. So, I grew up seventh of eight. My oldest sister passed away before I was born at the age of four.
She was actually buried on her fourth birthday, sadly. She passed away from leukemia. And then my youngest brother passed away my freshman year of college, which I talk about in the book a little bit.
So, for all of my growing up years, there were seven of us, not eight. And then the family just kind of continued to expand. Everybody eventually got married and had children.
And now on my side of the family, there's 35 grandkids. So, those are like pre-Medicaid type family backgrounds. You know, like you get together and everybody's going to take a Tylenol before because it's gonna be nice and loud and crazy.
But I would say from just a believing perspective at eight years old, I remember being in the basement of my church in Morton. My Sunday school teacher just giving a really compelling description, not just of how like, oh, you're going to burn, but more of a what does it look like to be separated from God for eternity? What might that be like?
And I was terrified but also had enough of these people pleasing mentality that I also didn't want to be the person who asked another question and held the class up. So, later on, I found out that it was easier for me to have that conversation. I think my mom discovered me kind of in tears, maybe even later that day.
And it was like, I don't think I know Jesus. And she's like, well, we can like, let's have a conversation. What's that look like?
And let's pray together. And so, at eight was when that became a reality in my life. And then really at 15 years old, coming home from a mission trip to Mexico, I ended up having just an awesome experience there and got baptized by a minister from our church.
His name was Dwayne. He was awesome. And then as I think through just, I mean, I mentioned it already, our family is really well acquainted with loss.
My oldest sister, my youngest brother, and then just some of our ongoing journey. My wife has an ongoing illness that requires a lot. It is a challenge for sure for her.
And then I think all of that kind of balls up together to frame a lot of where the content from my book comes from. Just living a life of non-ease has really kind of brought me to this place of if it's not going to go away or if it hasn't been taken away, what is it that sustains and how do I move through it and past it?
Laura Dugger: (6:09 - 6:32) And I definitely want to hear more elements of the book. But first, I'm just thinking through this. You said seven of eight and your youngest brother and you all are close in age.
So, to bring us into your story further, what age were you when you suffered that major loss of your brother and how did he pass away?
Doug Rumbold: (6:32 - 9:06) Yeah, that's a great question. So, my parents had all of us in 10 years. So, in 1969, they were married.
1970 is when they started cranking out children. And then 1980 was when my brother after me was born. And then it was 1997.
So, it's actually Halloween night of 1997. So, I was a freshman in college. I just moved away.
This was before cell phones. It's almost hard to imagine. But I was lying in my bed at night.
And my brother, my other brother, Ed, was at college with me as well as my sister, Jennifer, in the West suburbs in Elgin. And my brother tried to contact me because Ben had been in a car accident. So, he had been taking a walk with this girl he was getting to know.
And we live out in the country in Morton. So, you'll recognize these road names just because we're local. But if you know Tennessee, Tennessee and Harding, there's that intersection.
And my family grew up on Harding. But going down Tennessee Avenue, going north, a gentleman who actually ended up being our neighbor was coming over top of the hill. And he was changing a cassette tape, also a relic of the past.
And he was changing the cassette tape. And my brother was walking on the side of the road with traffic. So, his back was to oncoming traffic.
And the car struck him from behind. And he was essentially and effectively dead at the scene, but kind of for the benefit. And I will talk about this in the book a little bit.
The benefit of us, my other two siblings and I in Chicago, they, you know, rushed him straight to the hospital and then put him on life support. But he never had brain activity or anything from the moment that he arrived at the hospital till the following morning. We were asked, you know, how we wanted to continue.
And probably in the hardest decision that I've watched my dad make was to pull the power cord on life support. I mean, my dad was all about responsibility and he wasn't going to let somebody else do that. And my dad was also very quick in his ability to make a decision, even if the decision was hard.
And so, he just knew this was not, you know, technically Ben could have survived on life support. But he would have none of the vitality that he had had his entire 17 years prior. And so, that just was not an option.
Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:29) Goodness, Doug, I can't imagine that's one of those decisions you hope to never have to make as a parent. And then with your family grieving this sudden loss and then also working through forgiveness of a neighbor. What did that look like?
Doug Rumbold: (9:30 - 14:14) That's actually one of the most redeeming. I mean, again, God does this where he just kind of the Genesis 50 moment where it's like what the devil intended for harm. God meant for good.
And I remember his name was Mark. He's since passed. It happened in 97.
And I remember him coming to the door, you know, how people come to your house, and they provide condolences after a loss. And so, Ben was well known at high school. He worked with special needs children and was in the performing arts.
And so, he was just really well liked. And so, there was a high school kid. So, there's a steady stream of people coming, grieving kids, all that.
And I remember coming back from college and I remember not saying, I literally did not say a word for three days. My way of processing then was very inward. And so, I just remember being very silent.
I should correct myself. I didn't say a word other than what I'm about to tell you. Mark came to the house and Mark was in his mid-40s at the time.
And he was crushed. I mean, can you imagine what that would be like? And so, he shows up at the house.
And as he's coming up to the door, I remember my dad saying he pulls all of us kids aside. He says, “I want to tell you something. Mark is here.
He's coming up to the door. And right now, you have a choice. Forgiveness is never about how you feel.
It's about obedience. If you will forgive him now, I promise you will never struggle with bitterness toward him in this way. But it is an act of your will.
You must choose to forgive. But I'm not going to make you do so, like if you don't want to forgive him, that's fine. But I'm telling you right now, forgiveness is key.”
And I remember walking out to the door and greeting Mark and just giving him a hug and then looking at him in the eyes as a 19-year-old freshman in college and saying, “hey, Mark, I've done what you've done 100 times. You know, I've swerved off the side of the road. And so, I just want to let you know, I hold no ill will against you, and I completely forgive you.”
And he didn't really know what to say, just kind of mumbled some level of gratitude, I think. But it was kind of quiet. I had no idea the power in that moment that was happening where I was not bound to hold it against him.
And my dad was right. How many years are we removed from this? And I still had I never once thought, oh, what a jerk.
I can't believe you. I never struggled with anger toward God over the loss of my brother. These were things that I think could have happened had I held on to not being forgiven and not released Mark from that.
And probably the greater redemption happened over the years where over the next seven years, he would see my parents or my family around town, and he would always kind of hang his head. And my dad would always make it a point to say hi and to try to contact him and be kind. But Mark was just sullen, and it was difficult.
And then later on, Mark ended up having a pretty aggressive form of cancer. And by this point, my wife and I got married in January before. And I'll never forget.
We went to Carolina Beach. We lived in North Carolina at the time for just a quick getaway, the two of us. And we were coming back.
And on the drive back, I remember receiving a call from my dad and he's crying on the phone. He says, “Well, Mark just passed away.” And he goes, “but before he did, he invited your mother and I up to his hospital room.”
And when we walked in the room, he looked at me, he said, “Gary, I have I have often wondered why and how. Why would you forgive me? How did you muster the strength to do such a thing?”
And my dad, in his simplicity or whatever, was like, “Well, it's easy. I've you know, I've been forgiven. Do you know how much I've done?
Do you know what hurt I've caused other people?” And he says, “It's only natural that I should forgive you for what happened. It wasn't your intention.
Jesus forgave me. And so, I forgive you. Just real simple.”
And in that moment, Mark then began to ask what motivates. And my dad got to explain a relationship with Jesus Christ. And so, literally on his deathbed, just prior to passing, Mark turned his heart over to the Lord.
I mean, it was awesome. And so, just such a powerful story of forgiveness.
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Now, back to the show. What are the three types of suffering you see laid out in the Bible?
Doug Rumbold: (19:50 - 21:29) Yeah, I'm not a theologian by any stretch, and so I'm sure I might be missing some. But I think when I look at all of Scripture, I guess I just kind of come away with three different forms of suffering. I see the first one that you kind of come across is the most poignant one is the suffering of Job.
Here's somebody who didn't do anything wrong, and he experiences catastrophic pain. So, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty is the first form. The second one is the suffering that I caused.
Now, obviously, this is the one we first confront in Scripture, in the narrative. We see it in Genesis 3. But the story that most poignantly points this out to me is the story of David and Bathsheba.
Here's a king who has everything he needs and wants, and he should be out protecting and defending his kingdom. And instead, he's on his rooftop looking and taking what is not his. And so, there's suffering that I cause.
My pastor in college used to say, “You choose to sin, you choose to suffer.” And I think it's an apt description. And then the third form of suffering is the suffering that my faith brings.
I think about the apostles where they are called in by the council and arrested and beaten and told not to speak in the name. And what do they do? They walk out rejoicing, like, yes, we've been counted worthy to suffer.
Like, yeah, that's so different than the American version of Christianity at the present moment. We don't necessarily think that way. So, in short order, the suffering that God allows in his sovereignty, the suffering I cause in my sin, and the suffering my faith brings with persecution would be the three.
Laura Dugger: (21:30 - 21:42) Well, and I loved one of your quotes where you write, the earnest desire of my heart is that you come to understand the presence of God in and through suffering, no matter its cause.
Doug Rumbold: (21:43 - 22:03) Well, when I think about that, think of your own life, Laura. When you go back through ever since you just you surrendered your heart to Jesus, can you point to where were the deepest learning moments for you? What do you think?
How would you answer that question?
Laura Dugger: (22:04 - 22:26) I do feel like I may be an anomaly here because some of it is from those seasons of grief or searing loss. But also, I would say in the really good times, the gratitude and joy that he provides, those have been some of my greatest leaps in faith.
Doug Rumbold: (22:28 - 24:32) Yeah, I think that's huge. I think it's one of those reasons why you see in Scripture this idea of we're supposed to be people who are thanking God even through our suffering. I think it's that rhythm or that habit of gratitude that can transform even what may appear hard or difficult.
In the book, that quote that you just read, I think comes from this idea that God communicates his presence to us in different ways because of the form of suffering or hardship that we're facing. If I'm somebody who is suffering because of what God has allowed, I look at the idea of our daughter with cancer, for example, and I think, okay, the hardship that she faced, it would not make sense for her to frame her life and her hardship with suffering in terms of confession and forgiveness of sin. She didn't sin to get sick.
And so, the idea of how God's going to communicate his presence to her in the suffering that he allows is more about what does it mean to endure with patience and joy? How does she endure hardship with patience and joy? In those ways, in that way, rather, I think that's how God begins to communicate his presence to her.
His nearness to her means he's not far because something is wrong with her and she needs to be discarded. It's more that he is quite near, and it's the recognition of that. It's this like my heart can be glossed over by the pain I'm facing, whether God allows it, I cause it, or my faith brings it.
It can be glossed over if I have an inward curve, if I have like this inward turn of sin and I can miss. How does God want to communicate his presence to me through this? I think that overall, most of us focus more on the suffering that we're experiencing at times than we do on God's provided presence.
Laura Dugger: (24:33 - 24:54) And that reminds me of something else where you later write about Psalm 119:67, which says, “Before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word.” So, Doug, how did you experience the truth of this scripture through your experience with your daughter Jada?
Doug Rumbold: (24:56 - 27:57) Yeah, I think probably the safest and quickest description is pain has a way of getting our attention. Like your toe is just fine when you're walking to the kitchen at 2:00 a.m. to grab a drink of water and go back to bed. And then your toe makes its presence known when you kick the chair, right?
And you're like, oh, and then you're acutely aware of it. You know, you go back to bed and it's throbbing. You might put some ice on it.
Now it's cold. And pain is like that where it gets my attention when it's hit. And so, I was not aware, I don't think, of the depth of my self-reliance until every bit of control was removed from me.
So, particularly when I think of Jada's challenge, you know that before I was afflicted, I went astray, but now I keep your word. There's this mercy in suffering that says ever so slightly, we are people who easily turn to ourselves and our resources before we will turn to God. My wife would say it this way, and I agree with her.
I think it's an excellent understanding of parenting. We both view parenting as a form of stewardship. So, if I get paid, which I do, you know, for my work as a pastor, I get paid, I steward that money.
It's not my money. The Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills, right? So, if he owns everything, he owns even the finances that are put into my back pocket.
And the way that I steward it is the degree to which I am surrendered to him. And so, parenting is like that. God has given you the currency of children, and you have children that you are to steward back to God as an offering to him.
And my wife would say this, I just didn't know. I'm supposed to lay them down every day before the feet of God in full reliance and trust that he is a better parent than I will ever be. What happened in particular with our daughter showed how quickly we will take them back again, how quickly we will be people who will say, “Oh, well, I actually think I can make a better decision here than the Lord will.”
We would never say that out loud, but our control and our actions will illustrate that every day. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to get offended when your kid sins against you. It's one of the reasons why it's so easy to be overwhelmed when your kid is far from you.
We can get to a place where though we are to steward our children back to God, like finances given to us, like children given to us, there's this idea we are supposed to be stewards. And so, I learned that I went astray from God. And I still do every day.
It's a thousand opportunities to return to him. Does that make sense or am I talking crazy?
Laura Dugger: (27:58 - 28:24) No, that makes that makes sense. And even I think you're talking about something probably a lot of us are relating to as parents of certain times where we really grasp we are not in control. So, will you even take us to that day where that first became a realization for you? Because you're a parent of I believe she was a five-year-old at the time. Is that right?
Doug Rumbold: (28:25 - 37:11) Yes, that day was awful. I would never want to repeat it. Jessica had it's not really a day, but a kind of a progression from kind of like a Thanksgiving time frame until January.
So, the short order is my wife was pregnant with our youngest and her date for delivery was supposed to be right after January 1st, because I remember thinking, are you kidding me? I'm going to miss the cutoff for claiming this dependent. And anyway, Thanksgiving, we had gone down to visit some dear friends of ours.
So, a shout out to John and Katrina. I'm sure they'll listen to this who live in Oklahoma. It's where I did my internship in college on like this orphan boys ranch.
It was awesome. I loved it and grew a great friendship with them. So, we were down there visiting them.
And my wife has this gallbladder attack. And the way she describes it, she felt like she was dying. And of course, she didn't wake me up because, you know, women can apparently experience pain and not make a big deal of it.
Men, that doesn't work. So, there's definitely a gender difference there. And so, she realizes as she's homeschooling Jada, this is not tenable.
I can't keep this up, especially if I'm going to have a child and everything. And so, we decided, oh, no big deal. We'll have just come back from our trip and decided we were going to put Jada in public school just for the last part of kindergarten.
And Jessica was going to give birth to the child and hopefully get the treatment that she needed because we took an ultrasound, and they discovered a bunch of gallstones. And it was rough. And so, we get back, and we go to the school, get the forms.
And basically, it was just filling out a couple of forms. Oh, yes. A bunch of check marks here, and a bunch of check marks there.
Get the dental form and all that. You need one last thing that we can't just sign away. You need to do a quick physical.
Now, Jada was feeling great doing everything. You know, all of her markers were fine. We go to a doctor from our church at the Tremont Medical Clinic and he performed just a simple physical.
And Jada was, you know, everything was just fine. And as he's palpating around her stomach, he's just kind of pressing there. And I don't know how doctors do this where they, you know, press on your stomach and they're like, OK, your organs are in the right place.
OK, I trust you. So, his face, like his countenance, just shifted. And Jessica and I were both in the room and he just kind of looks at me because I just can't reconcile this.
But to rule anything out, we're just going to have her get an ultrasound and be on our way. I remember thinking I had a hernia when I was young, maybe six months or something. I can't remember how old I was.
And so, Jessica and I went home that night and I mean, we were shedding tears like, oh, my goodness. Our sweet daughter has a hernia. Can't believe it.
What does this mean? She's going to have surgery, all this stuff. And never were we prepared for what happened next.
You know, the next morning she wakes up, and she takes Jada and Oliver, who's two at the time, to get the ultrasound in Peoria at a place called Peoria Imaging. And I stayed home. I was writing a sermon.
So, I'm sitting there working on a sermon from Mark, Chapter eight. And Jessica goes and I'm not hearing from her. I'm not hearing from her.
And then about three hours later, I got a call and she's like, so, they did an ultrasound and then they did like another one. And then they ordered a CT, and they just got done with the CT. And she goes and I just looked out in the waiting room and it's full and nobody's coming in.
And now they said that she needs an MRI. And I'm like, “What?” This doesn't seem like a hernia.
And she said, “Honey, I just asked the nurse, and they won't commit.” “Like they won't say anything,” I asked.
I kept asking if it's a hernia. And finally, I just asked one of the nurses, “Is it bad?” And the nurse said, “That she thinks it's significant.”
And I'm like, oh. And I remember that day then calling my dad or my parents and just kind of giving them updates along the way. Like, okay, you know, Jay is going in for a quick ultrasound, probably a hernia.
But then I remember calling my dad and my dad’s on the phone with me right after I got off with Jess. And I just said, “So, it went from just a quick ultrasound to CT to an MRI.” And I said, “They just finished the MRI or they're in process.”
And they said, “That after the MRI, they want to send her to the hospital for blood work.” And my dad's only response was, “Oh, boy. I mean, it was just like,” and his voice quivered.
You know, the quiver of like the I don't know if I'm ready for this sort of quiver. And I can only imagine what's going through his head, having already lost two children and particularly one to cancer. He knows that feeling.
So, the day only got longer from there. I got a ride over there with my sister-in-law to Puri Imaging. And then we went to the hospital together and had to get blood drawn and all that stuff.
And that's a whole story in and of itself, the trauma of that for her. But I remember leaving the hospital and Jessica and I know at this point with the full weight of this is not a hernia, but we still don't have answers. Like every time I'm asking a question to a doctor or a nurse, they are deferring and deferring and deferring.
And my anger internally is kind of growing. And so, I'm a little, I'm not aggressive, but I'm assertive. And I remember driving away from OSF in Peoria.
And as we're driving away, Jade is just in the back seat looking out the window. And Jessica and I are in the front seat, just crying, but trying to hold it together, you know. And I look in my rear-view mirror.
I'm like, “Hey, sweetie.” And she's like, “Yeah.” “Like, what are you thinking about?”
She goes well. I just can't decide what smoothie I want at Smoothie King. That was the day where they, you know, the scan that she had to have was an NPO, which means she can't have any food or liquid unless it's clear.
And so, she was starving. And at this point it was like 6:30 at night. So, she's super hungry.
And so, we went to the first location and the second location. They were all closed between Christmas and New Year's. So, no Smoothie King for her.
And that was the last time we remember eating at McDonald's as a family. And then that night the diagnosis finally came. We got back home.
We were home for 10 minutes. And we received a call from what ended up being her surgeon from Illinois Medical Clinic. And we were asked to come back into an after-hours appointment, which those are never good.
And so, we walk in the door. We sit down. There's not even a secretary.
The lights in the building are off. We were walking down this hallway to this last, you know, exam room. And Jada is just sitting there on the table.
Jessica is about ready to pop pregnancy-wise. And the doctor walks in and says, so, I assume you know why you're here. And I said, actually, we haven't been able to get a straight answer.
And we have no idea what's happening. And she goes, are you kidding me? She's like, I have to be the one to tell you this, that your daughter has kidney cancer.
And I think the thing that caught me was Jessica sitting on a chair kind of at the foot of the exam table. And instinctively, I mean, it was like it wasn't even – it was no coaching. There was no – Jada just kind of crumbled and her body just kind of fell onto Jess.
And Jess's mom has walked through cancer twice. And so, Jessica has lived this journey as well, just the difficulty of it. And so, for her, she's just like I know what this required of me when my mom had it.
And I had to take care of her when I was in junior high and then again when I was in college. And now I'm pregnant and now my daughter has cancer. It was unreal.
And then I wrote about it in the book, but the walk from the front door to the van where Jada's face was buried in my neck. And the warmth of her tears and just her body just kind of melted into mine as we're walking back to the van. And it's like I never want to forget that because the usefulness of it, how helpful it is for me to recall some things, to live in that place of like this is what you redeem, this is what you restore.
But it was hard as heck. And so, that would be what I remember from the day of diagnosis.
Laura Dugger: (37:13 - 37:26) It is so hard to imagine what that would look like to get that news. And I'm just wondering for you and Jess, what did your faith look like and what were your conversations like with the Lord at that point?
Doug Rumbold: (37:29 - 39:10) You know, I – because of the loss of my brother earlier, I don't – I mean that's a great question. And I don't mean this how it might sound or come across, but my faith was never – I don't think that my faith was an issue in terms of am I still going to cling to Jesus. It was just more of a – it was just – it was so hard.
I really wish I had words for it. I talk about this in another podcast that I did. I remember just feeling so overwhelmed and more of a feeling like we were treading water in the middle of an ocean.
And someone – you're like begging for a life raft and they hand you a cinder block. And you're like, not helpful. So, my faith, our conversations with the Lord, they were hard, and we were certainly super sad.
My wife would probably talk about how she was broken and quiet and learning afresh what it means to surrender. But she is methodical and consistent in her pursuit of the Lord and extremely faithful. And so, hers was sitting in solitude and just waiting and cry and lament and work through it all and then come out the other side stronger.
I process things a little bit more verbally. But I think our faith was strong. We were just shattered for the pain that she was experiencing for sure.
Laura Dugger: (39:11 - 39:35) That's a great way of putting it. And just like He promises, I have spoken – Mark and I have talked with you and Jess before. And you've shared how God continued to be an ever-present help in these times of trouble.
But will you share one of your conversations with the Lord where he responded to you with alliteration?
Doug Rumbold: (39:35 - 45:50) Yeah, the one that I think of is – and I write about it a little bit in my book. But I just remember thinking kind of two questions that I would ask. One was right after Pierce was born and we obviously weren't having any sleep.
So, if you look at the timeline, Jada was diagnosed on the 30th of December. The 2nd of January was Jessica and my anniversary. The 3rd was Jada's surgery.
The 10th was when her pathology came back. And the diagnosis went from 95, 98% cure rate, survival rate just fine to like 40 to 60% survival rate. And a different stage of cancer and the size of the tumor was much larger than they originally anticipated.
And so, we came home that night from the pathology report and wept and wept and wept. And then Jessica started labor that night. And it was a blizzard.
Our midwife didn't make the birth. And then Pierce is born on the morning of the 11th, which is the same morning that Jada and I were supposed to go back in now to have more MRIs, more blood work to determine had the cancer metastasized throughout her whole body instead of just in that one tumor. And it was assumed that it had and so, that's why they were checking everything.
And so, it was an urgent, you need to get there for this. I just kind of felt like the one question, one of two questions I was asking, but one of them was with conversation with the Lord was when will you relent? Won't you just relent?
So, I was never like struggling in my faith to the degree that I was going to toss it, but I was angry with God. I was like, come on, like, how does this work? Can you give, throw me a bone, basically.
So, that was one conversation. But the conversation that's most poignant is after he started to frame those things up a little bit and give more of a trellis to build on. I remember treatment had begun, which timeline, if you're looking at it, the 11th is when Pierce is born.
The 13th is when Jada started treatment. So, from like the 13th to the 18th, she had radiation. And then after that, for the rest of the year, eight months, whatever, she had chemo.
I remember one morning I never slept at the hospital. It was just not comfortable. It was always beeping, stuff like that.
So, I would often go down to the playroom. There's an activity room at the end of the hall on the sixth floor there at OSF. And I'd be down there with a lackluster cup of coffee and my Bible and journal.
And I'd watch the sunrise over the city of Peoria. And it would just be kind of like; I really couldn't hardly read. It would be more of me just like, because no one was awake.
That was the only time when it was semi quiet. And I would just have these out loud conversations with the Lord. Like, what's happening?
And the conversation, the question that I kept asking was, Lord, how in the world are we going to do this? How in the world are we going to make it through? That's really when he began to kind of press back in.
And I'm not, I don't know how to explain this, but more of a, I had a very tangible sense that as I'm sitting there on the sixth floor, that he was almost in the chair next to me. And he's just, he's like, okay, tell me more about your struggle. What's it like?
Help me to understand the pain of your heart. And so, I'm, I'm unloading these things to Him. And all of a sudden I noticed the time and it's like, oh, Jada is going to be waking up soon.
I need to get back there before they do rounds, you know, and the whole dance starts again. And so, I kind of like, oh, I want to return. It's like when you wake up from a dream and you're like, oh no, I want to finish the dream.
And you try to go back to sleep quickly. That's a little bit of how that conversation was working out. And I remember going back to the room and jotting a few more things down in my journal.
And then after that it goes, okay. The day was now full of motion. And I had forgotten about the conversation quite honestly.
And until that evening, I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, I told Jada, I'm like, “Honey, I'm going to run home real quick and shower, get a change of clothes and maybe get some real food. And then I'll be back. Okay.”
Don't worry. And so, I hopped in my car, I turned on my headlights, and I got out of the parking garage, and I got on 74. And right as I was getting on the bridge to cross over the Illinois to go back toward Tremont, it was, I mean, I don't know how people feel about this.
So, sorry if I start a theological controversy on your podcast, but, um, I, as I'm sitting there as audible as you and I talking back and forth, there's this sense of my spirit of like, you asked how you're going to get through Christ community and confession. But there was really beyond that, there was really no discussion. You know, it was more just like those three words got tossed out.
And so, I remember driving down the highway and almost like, uh, you're in a zone where it's like, you see the headlights, you know, going like right past you and, and nothing is distracting to me. And I remember thinking some of those things made sense to me, like, you know, yes, Christ suffered. Yes.
I need community around me, things like that. But confession was the one that I struggled with the most. Like what do you mean by that?
You know, because I had a courtroom idea of confession, like, okay, I got caught doing something I shouldn't have. I need to confess. What I did was wrong.
And there definitely is that element. But I came to learn later that confession is the Hebrew word. One of the Hebrew words for it actually means praise.
And so, there's this, there's this idea of caught up, being caught up in understanding the presence of God and you're confessing. It's the word that actually, more accurately, fits is declaration. And so, I'm like, oh, wow.
Okay. So, what you're saying then is these scriptures that I've been studying for years now, I I'm actually, it's about declaring them in praise over my life, over my circumstances, over my daughter as a way of help to get us through. Okay.
Laura Dugger: (45:51 - 47:09) By now, I hope you've checked out our updated website, thesavvysauce.com so that you can have access to all the additional freebies we are offering, including all of our previous articles and all of our previous episodes, which now include transcriptions. You will be equipped to have your own practical chats for intentional living. When you read all the recommended questions in the articles or gain insight from expert guests and past episodes, as you read through the transcriptions, because many people have shared with us that they want to take notes on previous episodes, or maybe their spouse prefers to read our conversations rather than listen to them.
We heard all of that and we now have provided transcripts for all our episodes. Just visit thesavvysauce.com. All of this is conveniently located under the tab show notes on our website.
Happy reading. And I just want to go back to something that you said, because you use the word relent. God, how long until you relent?
And yet he flipped that word and taught you that he will relentlessly continue to pursue you with his presence.
Doug Rumbold: (47:10 - 49:26) I'm glad that you draw that out because I think the relentless pursuit is in that question of when will you relent? It was one of our darker moments, even in marriage where my wife and I were both stretched to the max, totally thin and struggling. And it was an argument, you know, where I'm lying on the ground after my wife and I had just kind of like, I need you to take care of this.
And she's asking me to take care of something I'm not wanting to, and I'm holding my ground and I'm tired. She's tired. And aren't your best moments between midnight and 7am anyway?
And so, I remember laying on the ground. That moment was laying on the ground at the foot of my son's crib in our bedroom. And he was not sleeping.
He's a newborn. Newborns don't sleep easily. And I remember pounding the ground and actually saying, you know, when, when will you relent God?
Like when will you let up? And to see the connection between my question was the assumption that God had left the building that God had kind of punched the clock. Okay.
I'll be back by five. You know, like when instead, the way that He wants to communicate His presence to me in my suffering shows that He's relentlessly digging through every bit of self-reliance that I've set up to try to manufacture outcomes. And so, there, there's a way that His relentless presence is like, like waves on a shore one after the other, the rhythmic nature of it, the dependable nature of it, you can't stop it.
Nature of it is the way that He can and will use any circumstance trial in your life to communicate His presence to you. So, yeah, that's right. Its relenting is a releasing and letting go, but relentless pursuit is also this like dogged pursuit of us.
it's been said before that, that God or Christ is the hound of heaven, you know, like a blood hound with your scent who won't give up until He finds you. And so, similar to our experience for sure.
Laura Dugger: (49:27 - 50:00) Well, and you go into these stories and then also offer hope and offer so much scripture where you have poured over to help us make sense of suffering. And even see things where it's a very upside-down economy as God often has, where there's blessing in the affliction, but yet to close the loop on this story. Can you give us a picture of where your family is at today? Even the ages of your children and Jada's status?
Doug Rumbold: (50:01 - 52:27) Yeah, for sure. So, it's been a long journey for sure. Jada now is 18 and we are in preparation for her.
She is going to be going to Arizona Christian University in the fall. So, a nice short 24-hour drive away. And so, again, we're learning afresh what it looks like to lay down our children, but we're super excited about it.
We are super excited about the new friends she'll make. My wife and I have always said Jada is a spread your wings and fly sort of girl and cancer only proved that. So, we're super excited about that for her.
Our son, Oliver, who was two at the time, is now 14 where he's a freshman. He turns 15 this summer and I'm sure we'll be driving soon after. No concerns there.
And then my son, Pierce, is in sixth grade. And yeah, they all have their own interest’s kind of across the board. Jada loves music and singing and playing piano.
Oliver is relationally. He's just this guy who enjoys mature conversation. So, like when we get together with our life group, you'll find him talking to the adult men just because he fits there. He's more of an old soul.
Pierce is our creative kid. He's always doing trick shots. And I mean, it's pretty crazy the stuff that he does. He's kind of fun like that and loves fishing and things of this nature.
So, yeah, all of my kids are very interesting and different like that. My wife is doing homeschooling for the boys, and she continues to be somebody who is a silent influencer in the lives of many, usually and primarily through prayer.
But I am amazed at how often the Lord uses her in the lives of other people to bring about change and transformation. She's just an excellent gifted counselor of people with the word of God and prayer. So, that's kind of where our family's at.
I've been at the time that Jada was ill, I was the youth pastor at Northfield and I'm still at Northfield though. I'm in a different role. I'm pastor of counseling and discipleship here at Northfield.
So, I have never left this community. So, I'm trying to think if there's anything else update wise. I don't think so.
I think it's pretty much it.
Laura Dugger: (52:27 - 52:30) And so, Jada is in remission.
Doug Rumbold: (52:30 - 55:11) Yes. She did have one other occurrence where she started having really acute headaches in 2013. Then, those acute headaches turned into taking her back for a checkup and the checkup revealed a lesion on her frontal lobe. So, a brain tumor.
We had to wait eight weeks to scan again. Those eight weeks were the hardest and worst that I think we've faced even from the first cancer. It was like, “Oh my goodness, we're going to have to go through this again.”
And then we had this season of waiting, you know, the eight weeks and then she was going back in for another scan to determine scope and growth. Also, you know, what type of craniotomy or brain surgery they were going to perform, to address it or whether it was going to be treated medically. Or how was that going to happen? And so, that all took place. Then, they did the scan, and we had to wait.
Normally we would have these scans, and it would be like a four-to-eight-hour turnaround. And you know that same day or even the next day we get a call from the St. Jude office, and they would say all clear. This one went one day, that was two days.
And I called and they said, “Oh, well, you know, the doctor will call you.” And I'm like, “Come on Beth.” You know, she was the head nurse that I've had relationship with for a while.
And she's like, “No, you know, the doctor will tell you.” And I'm like, “That's never good.” And come to find out, we had to wait until the end of that week.
So, it was not one day, not two days, not three days, not four days, but five. So, it went from Monday to Friday. And on Friday, the doctor called me after hours.
And I thought for sure it was, you know, here we go treatment time. And, um, she called back and said, the reason it's taken so long is because I had to have conference calls with, uh, Memphis, DC, LA, all these different cancer centers and looking at the imaging together. But when, when we laid the last image that shows the lesion over the newest one, the newest one shows nothing like it's completely gone.
And she goes, and it's definitely here. It's definitely something that requires intervention. And now it doesn't.
And so, she goes, I just wanted to confirm the anomaly. I'm like, that's not an anomaly. That's a healing.
And so, uh, Jada has been in remission, ever since. So, she's been, she's been doing good. In fact, her last cancer follow-up appointment was like three weeks ago and got the all clear.
So, praise God.
Laura Dugger: (55:11 - 55:44) Praise God. What an awesome, miraculous healing. I'm so thankful you shared that and really Doug with your unique career that you're in and the journey that you and Jess have been through and your love of scripture, you're putting all of this together and it really is such a gift, this book that you've written.
So, can you tell us just a little bit more of who this book is for and what people could expect to find when they read it?
Doug Rumbold: (55:45 - 57:54) Yeah. So, the book is for anyone because, and you would know this as well, but you're either heading into a trial, you're in the middle of a trial or you're on the backside of a trial. And there's never a moment in which you can say, “Oh, okay, well now I've learned and now I've arrived and now we're good.”
I do think that the preparation of our heart for trial is critical because it's going to come like we are going to face suffering of some form at some point. And so, it's good to know how to approach it. It's for anybody who wants to learn and grow and be encouraged.
But specifically, one of the things that I struggled with during our trial, and it's ongoing, you know, because of some of the stuff that we mentioned before ongoing health issues in our family and stuff like that. But I, what I found was people would be like, “Oh, here's a book.” It's only 320 pages on suffering.
I'm like, really? Thanks for that. I've got no capacity to do that.
So, I purposely wanted to write a book that you could personally sit and read like in an afternoon. It's so, it's short. It's like, you know, a hundred pages and it's digestible.
So, you could jump from one chapter to the eighth chapter if you wanted, and you would, you would still hopefully gain something. So, I wanted to make it uniquely accessible and heart focused. So, you'll find kind of like throughout the chapters, I have these like, so, truth to life.
And what I'm basically doing is trying to say, “Okay, we talked about something at a 30,000-foot view. What does it look like boots on the ground here?” I don't usually just spell it out for you.
I usually ask questions that are going to force you to address heart issues because scripture is pretty clear that all of our conduct flows from a heart that's filled with good or bad. So, people can expect to be challenged. They can expect to not have something that's too long and too hard to read, but they can also expect to find it kind of built around story a little bit.
That's one of the reasons why I use those different stories from scripture. I think we relate well and explain things well in a story.
Laura Dugger: (57:55 - 58:14) Definitely agree. We learn so much from Jesus's stories. Those stick with us and yours do too.
So, thank you for sharing all of those today. And if anyone desires more help and healing after today's conversation, where would you direct them?
Doug Rumbold: (58:15 - 59:59) The first thing that I would do is just encourage prayer. The idea of silence and solitude is where you can be begun to become aware of the healing that you may need and being able to just journal it down and have it right in front of you. That is probably one of the first steps.
Second thing I would say is to lean into community. COVID has kind of wrecked things in some ways where some people have gotten used to this idea of either online attendance or whatever. Nothing, nothing, nothing replaces the body of Christ in the tangible way.
And so, the idea of being with and around other like-minded believers is critical. But in terms of myself, the book that I wrote, it's available on Walmart, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You can just search Presence Over Pain in a search engine and find it pretty easily.
I am currently in the works of working through like an audio version of it because some people prefer that. So, that will be forthcoming. You can find me on Facebook or Instagram.
I provide biblical counseling in person or virtually so, people can contact me through those platforms if they want to have a conversation. And the cool thing is those things happen. There's a number of different connections that God has made where people have either read the book or they know someone who read the book and my name was recommended and here I am a couple of months later having a conversation with someone who found me online.
And I love technology for that purpose. How can we come together and build around something in Christ? It's pretty awesome.
Laura Dugger: (59:59 - 1:00:31) That is awesome. And we will certainly add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. In addition to the link to your own podcast where you dig a little bit deeper into the book.
And the name of that is also Presence Over Pain podcast. And Doug, you know that our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Doug Rumbold: (1:00:32 - 1:04:48) I love the question because practical is helpful. So, I think probably just some brief stories and then a couple of suggestions. So, I remember when I was younger, all seven of us children kind of growing up in the same house.
My dad had such a passion for us to know the word of God that he wanted us to all like sit down at the same time. And he was going to read a chapter of Proverbs. Well, can you imagine seven kids on a Tuesday morning trying to get ready for school?
And then your father saying, “Okay, everybody sit down.” Like nobody's going to be able to do that. And so, after a few failed attempts, what my dad did was he would, he would have a section that he was going to read, and he would start with the oldest child, and he would follow them around literally like follow them.
And he would just, he would read the word of God to them and then he would move to the next one and to the next one and to the next one and the next one. And I have memories of like even walking out the door, going to get on the bus and my dad following me right up to the door, reading the last bit of Proverbs to us. And so, practically speaking, you really cannot underestimate the value of intentionally diving into God's word daily personally.
Like don't let somebody else do it for you. It's so, personal. It's so, needed.
And just when you feel like it's not going to matter, the fruit of it will come forth. So, that's, that's one. And then the other story that kind of points to a practical reality is my wife grew up through her parents splitting up when she was, I think, second or third grade.
And just the difficulty of that, like the life of a single mom as she and her sister watched her mom go through that. But Jessica tells a story often of like not understanding and now understanding, but like she would knock on her mom's door and she would hear her mom crying and she would, she'd open the door and her mom would be face down on the floor, just, just praying and weeping. And she's like, hold on, honey.
Mommy just needs to be with Jesus. And it communicated this idea. And my wife has carried this on in our own family and in her practice of just like prayer and particularly prayers of lament are huge.
And so, practically speaking, what's that look like? I mean, I have an exercise. I'm sure you are being a counselor by nature would, would appreciate this.
But one of the things that you can do to learn how to lament is to look at a good number of the Psalms are lament Psalms. Like they're sad Psalms. Like Lord, my life stinks.
The wheels have fallen off and you're nowhere to be found. So, being honest with God is critical, but a simple assignment would be to read a lament Psalm, like Psalm 13 or Psalm 88 or Psalm 77, Psalm 42, any of those. And then as you read that Psalm, just the simple assignment is to like write your own Psalm of lament and then read it back to the Lord. You know, Lord, I felt like you were absent when my daughter was diagnosed with cancer, but I am going to trust in your unfailing love.
Like you see those pictures all throughout the Psalm. So, that's a practical, simple way to engage God. I think the last thing that I would say in terms of practical is the idea of rest from a perspective, you know, biblically it's called Sabbath.
Do you have a 24-hour period of rest? Because what you do when you Sabbath is you say something to God and to everyone else. It doesn't depend on me.
When I choose to rest, I'm choosing not to be productive. I'm choosing not to perform. I'm choosing only to receive.
I'm choosing to rest. I'm choosing to fall back into his arms. Rhythmically reminding ourselves of that for me, the way that that works out is like, you know, I'm a pastor.
So, Sundays are a workday. So, once I get home after Sunday until like noon, the following day is the time when it's like, okay, this is where I'm not going to be on my screen. I'm going to take a walk with the family.
We're going to have dinner together. Things that are filling and receiving are critically helpful. And I would say savvy.
Laura Dugger: (1:04:49 - 1:05:08) That's so good. And Doug, Mark and I are just so grateful to know you and Jess. We learn from both of you, and we've learned from your stories. They've been so impactful today.
So, thank you for writing this resource and thank you for being my guest today.
Doug Rumbold: (1:05:09 - 1:05:11) It was a total pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
Laura Dugger: (1:05:12 - 1:08:54) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?
It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?
Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?
We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.
We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.
Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.
I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.
I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes including where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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