Special Patreon Release: Emotionally Healthy Familial Relationships with Cherilyn Orr
"bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4b (KJV)
*Transcription Below*
Cherilyn Orr is passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She has worked with families and educators in North America, Europe, and Africa to help them build safe schools, homes, and communities where children can flourish. The Stoplight Approach that she developed was born out of her experiences as an educator, a foster mom, and a mom to seven through birth and adoption, and it combines biblical truths with the latest brain science. Connect with her on her Website, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.
Topics and Questions We Cover:
What are a few helpful tips for us to understand brain science 101?
How can we repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our Green zone?
Within the stoplight approach, can you provide some examples of how we can calm a red-rooted misbehavior?
Thank You to Our Sponsors: Chick-fil-A East Peoria and The Savvy Sauce Charities (and donate online here)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:00 – 0:09)
Laura Dugger: (0:09 - 2:07)
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
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Cherilyn Orr is my guest today. She is kind and humble and a woman who's passionate about helping parents, teachers, and guardians raise emotionally healthy and resilient children. She's going to share how she combines biblical truths with the latest brain science to build healthy relationships in the family.
Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Cherilyn.
Cherilyn Orr: (2:07 - 2:08)
Thank you. I'm really happy to join you today.
Laura Dugger: (2:08 - 2:10)
And will you start by just giving us a snapshot of your life right now?
Cherilyn Orr: (2:08 - 3:11)
Yes, I am actually talking to you from Athens, Greece. That is where our family resides right now. And we've been here for the last few years. And before that, we lived in Uganda and Africa.
I have seven children and my oldest is now a mom herself. And she just gave birth a couple months ago to a preemie little baby. And I am so excited because now I have entered the world of grandparenthood.
But I'm also in the throes of life with a 12-year-old, a 14-year-old, and a 17-year-old. And I have a university student living at home. My next son is 21, and he's also living at home, going to university. So those are my four at home.
I have one in Canada, working there. And I have two that are married. One that lives in Africa with his wife, and they're working there. And another one with my grandbaby that's living here in Greece, working with the church here.
Laura Dugger: (3:12 - 3:19)
That is quite a full family and a global family. What has taken you to the different parts of the world?
Cherilyn Orr: (3:20 - 3:44)
Well, we are a missional family. But we believe that everybody's called to be a missional and to serve God. And God happens to have taken us to different places.
I've been working with The Stoplight Approach now for a few years now. My husband does leadership training as well. So that's kind of what's taken us around the world. Now that we're in Greece, I'm also involved with refugees as well here.
Laura Dugger: (3:45 - 4:06)
Well, we are fortunate to live in a time with access to scientific knowledge about the brain. And it all points back to our brilliant Creator, God. But you make this brain science so simple to comprehend. So, can you just share a few helpful tips for us so that we can understand kind of brain science 101?
Cherilyn Orr: (4:08 - 6:40)
Yes, I think for me, it's been a journey. But it came when after we adopted a child and she was having an all-out meltdown. And it would have taken me an hour or so to regroup her.
And it was just amazing. I was with a friend and she is a behavioral consultant. And she said, “Let me.” And this was after we had had her for at least a couple of years at this point. And she just said, “Let me.”
And she got down on the ground where my child was screaming hysterically. And she was able to get her back sitting on her seat, doing what she was supposed to in less than, I don't know, 10 minutes.
And I was shocked because here I am an educator. I have a master's degree. I'm a special needs teacher. I have been working for years with children in different settings around the world. And here I was looking at her doing something that I just didn't know how to do.
It was a huge paradigm shift for me when she said afterwards, I said, “What did you do?”
And she said, “It's by understanding the brain. The brain is like three parts. It's like a stoplight.”
So, she said, if you can think of it that way, as there's that bottom part of your brain, which is that fight, flight, freeze. When you are just only using 50% of your capacity and you just can't hear anybody's perspective.
And then there's that middle part of your brain, which is the limbic system. And she said, you know, that's when you're using 75% or so of your brain capacity. And that's when you're stressed, you're worried, you're anxious, and you're just not at your best.
And then there's your top part of your brain, which is your neocortex, which you are just ready to learn. And you can problem solve and you can think and you are the best version of yourself at that moment.
And she talked to me a little bit about that. And she's just said, this is what's happening in your brain. For me, that was a wow, you know, because it's like understanding the brain is so opposite than anything that I had ever done. And as an educator, I've been trained to control children. I've taken courses on behavior management. And this was just like changing the equation. When you understand the brain, then it changes how you can relate to the child in your care.
Laura Dugger: (6:41 - 7:05)
And also, I will just sprinkle in a few little things that I found fascinating in your book. One of your conclusions was that relationships are the biggest factor in brain development and for it to develop in a healthy way. So, is that what you found true throughout the years of our life, that relationships are vital?
Cherilyn Orr: (7:05 - 8:02)
It's for everybody. And it needs to start with that relationship. And that relationship has what I would say three pillars, which is safety, which is your red brain. In order to come out of that fight, flight or freeze, you have to feel safe.
And in order to come out of yellow brain, which is your limbic system, you need to feel connected and you need to feel respected. And respect means to be seen, heard and valued. And when you're in that yellow brain state, you don't feel connected. You feel disconnected.
So, in order to get people to green brain, you need to make them feel seen, heard and valued. So, if we want healthy relationships and we want green home, then we need to be able to help our children get to that green brain state. But it starts by making them feel safe and making them feel connected. So, relationship is foundational.
Laura Dugger: (8:02 - 8:24)
And you've combined your knowledge of the Bible and all of this brain science to write a book entitled Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children. So, will you elaborate now on that Stoplight Approach that you teach and write about?
Cherilyn Orr: (8:27 - 11:10)
Well, yes, I am so excited because we just looked at, you know, those three elements, safety, respect and being connected, and then we could teach it. And when we look at the Bible and we say, “How does God view me and how does He work with me?”
I go back to the fact is when God sees me in my mess ups and He sees my anger or my gossip or my addictions or whatever I'm struggling with. He looks at me and He says, “Come to me. I am your safety. I am your refuge.”
He wants us to bring Him our messes. He says, “Come to me just as you are, not as you want to be, not as you should be and not as you could be.” And in that context, He says, “I delight in you. I know you. I know every hair on your head. I know you. I know your name and I love you. You are in the palm of my hand and I delight in you.”
And Zephaniah talks about and He sings over us, not because we've done something, not because we're worthy, because He knows that unless we feel safe and unless we are in that connection and can relationship with them, then He cannot help us to train us and to walk with us and guide us through the process of growing and becoming that healthy person that He desires for us to be.
So, I was so excited when I looked at who God is and how it matches with what brain science is teaching us about red, yellow, green and how we can't teach anybody. It takes 12 to 15 times to teach a child a new skill when they are in green. That same child, that same skill when he's there in red will take 350 to 400 times because that is not the part of the brain where you can do problem solving or critical thinking or even to have empathy for anybody else. That part of the brain can only do rote learning. So, it will take you so long to teach a child when they're in that part of the brain.
And I love it because that obedience is an outflowing of a relationship with us, with God. And when we look at our child, that's what we want is we don't want them to obey us because they fear us, but we want them to obey us because they are connected to us. Just like God wants us to obey Him in that relationship, not because it's the rule and that's what we need to do.
So, I'm so excited to see how that brain science is catching up to who God is.
Laura Dugger: (11:11 - 12:07)
Oh, my goodness. That is amazing to also just think of the Lord as obviously our parent and we want to model after Him. Some of this is reminding me there was a previous episode with Dr. Josh and Christy Straub where they were looking at research findings about parenting. And one of them was that it was so important for us to be self-regulated when we're responding to our children. And there's a connection.
So, in your book, I'm just going to read this one quote from page 56. You wrote, “One of the most shocking things I realized as I learned about brain science was that it is impossible to make a child feel loved when the parent is in yellow or red. They feel our stress. They feel our disapproval.” And so, would you like to elaborate on that as well?
Cherilyn Orr: (12:09 - 13:41)
Well, we have this thing that we talk a lot about in The Stoplight Approach. We talk about the stoplight starts with me. You cannot give what you don't have.
So many parents will say, “I love my child,” but the child does not feel loved. And when I was doing seminars and training throughout North America, you know, often people say, “We are a yellow society.” And that broke my heart.
We are a yellow society. We're running our kids at five in the morning to this program, to hockey or this or programs late at night. And we're just running.
And I feel like if we are yellow and we are stressed, then there is automatically a disconnect. There's almost like a gate that says, do not enter. You can't go through it unless you are in green.
You're in red, then your whole house turns to red. Mama's in red, everybody's in red. Or if you're in yellow, you'll start to see the children in your care are in yellow.
And I find that in my house. When I start to see my house going to that yellow space, I start to have to do like, what color am I in? If I'm in yellow, then they're going to be in yellow. And you start to see them fighting amongst themselves or bickering or just not cooperating. And there's that tension that comes because they're picking up my yellowness and my stress.
Laura Dugger: (13:42 - 14:04)
And so, let's go a little bit further with that scenario. If parents are in a very stressful season and there are quite a few to-do's that have to get done on top of the daily things. If that parent identifies they are in the yellow, maybe in the red, how can they get back to green even in the midst of a crazy time of life?
Cherilyn Orr: (14:06 - 16:26)
Well, you know, you don't have to be perfect. You don't have to be a perfect parent. But what science is showing us and it's what God wants from us is that sense of repair. We need to look at how do we repair because that's what our child needs because life is not perfect and we are not perfect. And I am certainly far from being a perfect parent. But how do I repair the damage and how do I connect?
So, we call it fix it, treasure it and change it. So, fix it is: Yes, I am sorry. Mommy yelled at you. I am so sorry I did that. I was in yellow and I was really stressed. Would you forgive me? I love you and you did not deserve me to yell at you. I care about you and I did not handle that appropriately.
And I want you to help me. This is what I've said to my children. I want you to help me when I'm going to red or I'm going to yellow. Just remind me and say, “Mom, you're going to yellow.” And then that can help me to make some changes right then and create that gap so that I'm not reacting. Or maybe I could take a walk or maybe I could get myself back to green.
When I react in that yellow or red brain state, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for others. So, let's work together on this.
And then we can talk about maybe what was happening in our house at that time as well. And maybe how they can help things to go smoother in our house. So that they could take some responsibility in helping because Mommy didn't feel seen, heard and valued. You know, I had asked you five times to do that. So how do we work together to make this house run smoother?
So being red and yellow are not bad things. It's not like you are horrible because you went to red and yellow. It's warning. It's like an alarm going off to say, be careful, be careful.
It's an opportunity to reflect and say, what's not working here? What's the deeper issue here? Yes, maybe I was overtired and maybe I did this. But what else is going on? And I may need to look back on things that maybe are triggering me that are deeper. And maybe things that relate back to my own childhood or how I was raised.
Laura Dugger: (16:26 - 16:52)
That makes a lot of sense, that reflection. Because I studied psychology and marriage and family therapy. And we were always taught, name it to tame it. And sometimes that really does help when we can pinpoint and identify and name. What is that trigger? It helps to tame it. And I think the biblical concept is when you share it with somebody else, when you bring it into the light, it does lose a lot of its power.
Cherilyn Orr: (16:53 - 17:46)
Definitely. Because if I can say I'm in red, it helps me know what I need to do to get myself back to green. So, if I can start to recognize when my body is starting to get tense, when I'm starting to get stressed, I can say, oh, this is my warning. I need to do this. I need to have a shower. I need to go for a walk. I need to regroup myself so that I'm not reacting to my children in my red brain state. I can get myself back to green first. So, I can create that gap.
So, naming it, that's what I think the success of Stoplight is. It's the common language that says how do we help each other when we are moving to yellow and we are moving to red so that everybody in the family knows that red is not bad, but how do we help that person in their red to get back to green?
Laura Dugger: (17:48 - 17:52)
What is the Stoplight Approach to discipline and boundaries?
Cherilyn Orr: (17:54 - 22:32)
Well, sometimes people think, oh, is The Stoplight Approach permissive? You know, we just let kids do what they want and let them be in green. If anybody has multiple children, you know that if one child is being self-centered and they're in their own world, it's going to create chaos for the rest of the family.
And so, Stoplight is not about permissiveness. And I think we need to be looking at the word discipline comes from the word disciple, which means to train. If you can kind of get that word discipline, because so often we've mixed that word discipline with punishment. So, it's all about punishing a child, whereas actually discipline is not about punishing. It's about training a child.
And everybody, every child needs boundaries. Boundaries help to keep us safe. They help to keep our family safe. It helps to keep that relationships in a healthy way.
So, we often use that word to look at how do we as parents, we've always got boundaries. Don't run in the road. We want to keep you safe. Don't touch the hot stove because you'll burn yourself. So, we look for ways to keep our child safe, and we look for ways to help them be safe in relationships. Yes, you want that ball, but you don't hit the other child to get the ball. So, what could we do differently?
Proverbs 13:24 is a common phrase that I grew up hearing. It was kind of like the parenting theology of my generation. “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but who loves him diligently disciplines him.”
So that was a verse that I heard a lot in my life. But then as I was studying and looking at brain science and really studying about who is God. And I had to look at what is my image of God? Is He this harsh judge up there that maybe subconsciously I believed? Or is He that loving father like the prodigal son that's waiting for his son? Not to punish him, but to love him and to connect with him. And it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. So, He's a good, good father.
So, then I started to dissect this. What is the rod used for? And it talks about the rod being a comfort and a rod being a sense of protection. And we often hear it used in relationships to sheep. You know, if we're going to keep sheep safe, then we need the rod. That shepherd used a rod to protect his sheep from wild animals. So, as we look at that word rod, it's a protection tool.
So, we take apart that and then hates his son. I think, wow, a parent that does not protect their child or teaches their child to be aware of the dangers in this world. So, as a young child, you're protecting them and teaching them to make safe choices. And then as they get older, you still have to continually, continually teach them that. And so, when I look at that word rod and hates his son, that would be a neglectful. In my words, a parent who is neglectful to teach.
The second verse talks about diligently. And that reminds me in Deuteronomy, when we're told to teach our children all through the day, when we're walking, when we're sitting, when we're at mealtimes. We should be using our days to continually teach our children and to discipline them, which would be to train them in the way that they should go.
And I look at God as our creator of our brain. And He loves us so very, very much. And He wants the very best for us. And we know that children and human beings do better when they feel better. So how do we connect with our child? How do we protect our children? And how do we take that opportunity to be present with our child?
Those are hard things for a lot of parents these days to be present, to be engaged with them and to look for ways to continually be working with them and protecting them and keeping them safe.
Laura Dugger: (22:33 - 22:58)
Wow. And I just want to share one of my favorite takeaways from page 143, where you write “Green rooted misbehavior needs coaching. Yellow roots need connection. And red roots need calming.” So, can you provide some examples with that last one of how we can calm a red rooted misbehavior?
Cherilyn Orr: (23:00 - 27:00)
Yes, I certainly can. So, all three of these are so important because we often miss it. I'm going to say that red root, it needs us to speak the red language, speak red brain. And to speak red brain means to stop talking about the problem.
That child does not have capacity to hear you when they are in a red brain state. They need me to be calm. They need me to be in green. And they need me to stop talking. And maybe to only use words that feel safe. You're safe. I'm here. You're safe. I'm here. There's no point in talking to anybody in red brain because they have no capacity to hear.
And then also to be able to go for a walk with your child. Repetitive patterning activities are really helpful. Like for my children, each of my children have, they have a green plan. It's like, what do I do when I'm starting to go to red?
So maybe for one of my children, we have a hammock outside. So, she goes there. These are planned ahead of time when they are in green. These are discussed ahead of time. So, another child will, you know, might listen to music, have a shower, go for a walk. Every single one of us, whether it be an adult or child, should look at what do I need to do to get back to green.
As a parent, when we're looking at green rooted misbehaviors, red rooted misbehaviors and yellow roots misbehaviors, you could have the same issue like two kids fighting. You come around the corner and there you see your two siblings fighting. As a parent, often we go to red immediately. Our brain state goes because it feels threatening. It feels fearful to us. And then we react.
So, I have to take a deep breath myself and I have to say, OK, what brain state is this child in? And sometimes we don't know. So, we can call the children and say, what's going on? Just stopping and asking the question will give us the opportunity to hear what brain state our child is in.
If they happily look it up and say, we were playing Pirates of the Caribbean or something that they had seen on a TV show, then you can say, OK, well, what you're doing is unsafe and somebody is going to get hurt. But they're just acting.
And then if it's a yellow brain state, it's like he pushed me, he touched me. And they're just kind of bickering at each other. They're not really all out fighting. But, you know, you can look at them and say, let's stop and let's make each other feel seen, heard and valued. So, you can work with that child because that child at that point is in yellow brain. And then we can speak yellow brain, which is people don't feel that they're being heard. They don't feel respected. And that's when you can talk about what other things that they could do instead.
And then, of course, we have red brain when these children are all out to hurt each other. They are mad. So that's when we can go into that red brain and say, OK, both of you need to get back to green. We're not going to talk about this right now. I want you to use your green plan and get yourselves back to green. And then we will talk.
Some children can do that independently and some children need you to do it with them. And sometimes it might be that you just take those two children out and say, we're going to run around the block together.” And it's how do you connect with your child at that particular time and keep them safe and get them moving and get their brain state back up to green before you talk with them.
Laura Dugger: (27:01 - 32:37)
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Now, back to the show. And then on our side, I love how you also bring in the repair piece. So how can we practically repair the relationship when we don't disciple and discipline from our green zone as the parent?
Cherilyn Orr: (32:38 - 34:39)
Yes, I feel like that is, it's really hard to ask your child to do anything that you're not doing because they're not going to actually be able to take that to heart. And if you say to a child, “I want you to say sorry to your sibling,” they're just going to look and go, “Sorry,” and have no meaning whatsoever.
And that's why we've done a lot of apology notes in my home over the years, because it's an opportunity to really sit down and reflect and talk. And we talk about how the card needs to be beautiful because we need to treasure that person. And so, they need to apologize for what they did. They need to talk about why on earth are they even writing this apology note? Why is that person of value? Because they're our sister or they're our brother or they're our friend or they're the teacher or the coach. And they are a part of our community and our family. So, we need to write that apology note to value that person.
And then we talk about what are we going to do next time. So those three points go into every single apology note my kids write: fix it, treasure it, change it. But you cannot do that when the child is in red. You cannot do it when they're in yellow. You need to have them back to green and then we can talk through it. And then they can go and deliver that to that person and then talk about how they can reconcile the situation. But I find that that's a really good reflective piece that I've used over the years.
But as a parent, it's hard to say sorry to your kid. It's easier to jump in and just treasure the child. You know, let's go to the park. Let's do this and just value the child. But then you end up having an insecure relationship because you've never acknowledged the problem. Therefore, you cannot change it. So therefore, you cannot have a healthy reconciliation.
Laura Dugger: (34:40 - 34:57)
And how have you seen this Stoplight Approach work across the world? So many different settings with different countries and cultures or families who foster and adapt or even ones raising children with special needs?
Cherilyn Orr: (34:59 - 36:53)
Well, the great thing about science is it doesn't change based on where you are in the world and what culture you're in. Every human has a brain, and all human brains function the same way. And all human brains need safety, connection and coaching.
So that's been the exciting part about understanding brain science. So, you know, even when I work in Africa, I'll say to people when I get malaria, do they give me a different medication because I'm from Canada or do they give me the same as you? And everybody says, of course, malaria is malaria. You know, it's because of science.
And I love that whole element of science that our brains are made the same. It doesn't matter what culture you're in and it doesn't matter what special needs you have. If I see a child and they're under the table and they're holding their ears, I might not know that child at all. But I know that that child is in red brain. I don't have to know if they're special needs. I don't have to know anything else. I can immediately diagnose what brain state that child is in. And then I can work at creating safety for that child. And connecting with that child. And then we can find out how do we move that child and work with that child, whatever their needs are.
And I have four adopted children, and I have fostered many children. In the process of doing that, I have recognized that every child needs to feel safe, connected, and then we can train them. So, it's like changing the equation for how we work with the children. But it works for all people. So, I don't have to have a different philosophy of parenting for my adopted child or my foster child or my biological children. Does that make sense?
Laura Dugger: (36:53 - 37:03)
Yes, absolutely. And to personalize it, how has The Stoplight Approach then worked in your life and with you and your husband raising your own children?
Cherilyn Orr: (37:05 - 41:32)
I just love the fact that it's a common language. So, I can give you an example of one day there was company coming and I was really stressed. And it seemed like everywhere I looked; every room was a disaster. You know, I had teenagers who were cooking and making themselves food and it was a mess. I had children that had used the bathroom and made a mess all through the bathroom. And then I had toys everywhere and sheets being made into forts. And I had company showing up.
And so, I was going into to Red Brain and I started going, “Who did this? What did you do? Who left this here? Who made this mess?” And one of my kids went and says, “Dad, mom's going to Red.” And that wasn't a judgment. That was like, this is a fact. We need your help here.
And so, dad comes along and he says, he puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, “You're going to Red.” He says, “Why don't you go for a walk? I'll do zone cleanup with the kids because I'm in green. And you can come back in 20 minutes and then you can do all the final tidy up before the kids come. And then that we could greet the company and green.”
So, it just becomes that common language of understanding. And he knew my need at that time. I was feeling unsafe because the house was a disaster. And my brain just was it's a brain issue, right? It's not a behavior issue. But then it was like, how do we support mom in this moment? And then I came back 20 minutes later and did the final little cleanups, and we were able to greet the company in green.
So, there's an example of using the common language as a way to help others in our family know what brain state you're in to support one another. And to be able to identify and connect.
I mean, I could give you tons of examples, even from the smallest child. They start to understand. “He made me go to red” or “I'm in red now.” So, then it's like, OK, so what do we need to do? How do we do this?
I mean, there's been days when all of a sudden I hear everybody kind of not doing too great. And I get them all to sit at the table. And I said, “So what color is our home right now?” And somebody say red. Somebody else says yellow. Then you're saying, “OK, but what kind of home do we want to have?” And they'll say green. So, what do we need to do to get it to green?
So, I think there's there's many, many different ways. But I think it's that common language that even the small child that's two and three can start to learn when they're in red or we can start to use it to teach empathy. When you did that to your sibling, what color did we make him? He didn't feel seen, heard and valued.
Just a few weeks ago, my daughter. Here's here's a recent example. We've had a refugee staying with us for a couple of years, a little girl, and she was about three. All of a sudden there was this blood curdling screaming, you know, just screaming. And I come around the corner going, “What's going on?” And my 12-year-old, very responsible, is holding scissors. She's running with scissors.
And so, my 12-year-old here was a chance to talk. And I said, “OK, so when you took her scissors away, she did not feel seen, heard and valued. Because when you took them away from her, you didn't actually speak to her. So, you need to get down on your knees, and you need to look at her and say, what did you want the scissors for? And we need to teach her. Where do we have scissors? How do we use them?”
So, she was being responsible to keep her safe. But she didn't make her feel seen, heard and valued and listen to her and say, “Oh, you want to cut your hair. Oh, only mommy cuts hair. You can't cut your hair, but we could use our scissors at the table.” So, using red, yellow and green helps to give incredible opportunities to teach empathy and to look at themselves, self-awareness and how to grow and take responsibility.
Laura Dugger: (41:34 - 42:06)
And I love how you talk about this common language in such a proactive way with our children, with our families. So that when we are in red, we've got a path and a plan to get back to green. And we've got some tips for repair.
So, when we go to the proactive side and kind of tie this back into the beginning, when we talked about relationships are the foundation for brain health and development. What are some ways to securely attach with our children during different ages and stages?
Cherilyn Orr: (42:08 - 45:54)
I think it comes back to being intentional. I often think of it as the 5-10-5 rule. Five minutes in the morning, five minutes in the evening and five minutes before they go to bed at night. It's that opportunity to stop what you're doing and to just focus in intentionally connecting with my child.
It's not easy. It's not easy. But it's how do I connect first thing in the morning when that child has been disconnected from me all night long? How do I connect with them first thing in the morning before they start their day? And then how do I connect with them like after school, before dinner? And how do I hear about what they want to tell me about their day? What part was red? What part was yellow? What kind of day they had?
One of my kids goes, “It was lime green.” And I'm like, “Okay, so how did that happen?”
“Well, I was in green and then I lost my backpack. So, I went to yellow, but then the teacher helped me find it. So, then I went back to green.” So that's how she described her day.
And then you have that connecting before they go to bed at night. That's just like, I see you, I know you, I hear you.
And so that can look differently according to different ages and stages of life. But I think holding that 5-10-5 is a good principle. And there are so many of my children that that 5-10-5 happens in hours and hours. Because they are children that demand my attention. And they are there and they are wanting that continual attention. So, some kids it happens more naturally too.
And then there are some children, and especially as they start getting older, it's a lot more challenging to be able to find that 5-10-5. And that doesn't mean in the busyness of the dinner table or in chore times. But it's about trying to connect with them and say, “I hear you. Tell me about your life. And where are you at?” Or just really just having fun with them. And just connecting to them and laughing with them and playing a game with them as well. Or going for a walk. We do a lot of that.
And with teenagers, and especially boys, it was all about the food. I would show up in their room with a milkshake or something else. Or call them out of their rooms to connect with them at different times. So, you have to be creative. It's not about my schedule sometimes. It's about looking at when they are open as well. Especially as you start getting into teenagers.
And I found that one of my teenagers, she'd always like to come and sit on my bed. Just at 11 o'clock at night. Just as I feel like I'm down for the night. And you know that baby is going to start waking up at 6 or 7. And you're just dying to go to sleep. But you know that this is important. She's ready to talk. And so, I need to be available.
Which isn't easy. But also, I think, how do we do that with seven children? Because that's a lot of kids. But my husband and I, we look at dividing and conquering. And then we look at special times. Like daddy time. Or going out with mom. Where I'll take one child to do a chore. Or go shopping. And I think that is really important to think about. How am I intentionally connecting with my child? So, I took a child to Canada recently. And I often will take a different child on different trips that I'm going on.
Laura Dugger: (45:55 - 46:15)
Okay, so five minutes right in the morning. Greeting each other. Five minutes before bed. And finding ten minutes of intentional time to connect. Is that one-on-one throughout the day?
Cherilyn Orr:
Yes.
Laura Dugger:
You've given us so many helpful tips to apply. Is there any other encouragement that you want to make sure that we don't miss out on?
Cherilyn Orr: (46:16 - 47:52)
I think when you hear a lot of these stories. First of all, I want you to know that I am not perfect. As a mom, it's a journey. And I don't want you to go away feeling like, I could never do all this. It's a journey one baby step at a time. And I encourage you to get the book. Listen to podcasts. And be able to join that journey. But don't be hard on yourself. And don't feel that sense of guilt and shame. That says, oh my, I messed up. That's okay.
Being able to recognize you messed up is a good thing. And also recognize that you think, oh man, I messed up on my kids. I did all the wrong things. I want to tell you that we all do the best we can with the knowledge that we have. And that's really, really important to know. It's like, this is a journey. And you are doing the best.
I learned all about behavior management. How do I control my child's behavior? And that was how I parented when I started this journey. And it has been a journey to shift into brain science. And to learn as much as I can about the brain science. And how it impacts my child. And to grow and be the parent that God wants me to be. But don't be hard on yourself in that way. That would be my biggest thing is. And to take one baby step. To decide one baby step that you take.
Laura Dugger: (47:52 - 47:57)
And where can people find and learn more from you online?
Cherilyn Orr: (47:58 - 48:14)
Well, look at the StoplightApproach.org. So that is our website. And you can follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube. And you can preorder and sign up for your book (Signals: How Brain Science and the Bible Help Parents Raise Resilient Children). You can get that on Amazon.
Laura Dugger: (48:15 - 48:32)
Wonderful. We will add those links to the show notes for today's episode. And Cherilyn, you may know we are called The Savvy Sauce. Because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so is my final question for you today. What is your Savvy Sauce?
Cherilyn Orr: (48:33 - 48:55)
I would say that it's not about controlling behavior. It's about connecting with my child. Relationship first rather than behavior first. It's like changing the equation. Relationship is the key. And everything else will flow out of that. And then if you can think of change the brain. Then you'll be able to change the behavior.
Laura Dugger: (48:56 – 49:20)
Oh, I love that. That is memorable. And I really appreciate your emphasis on relationship. And it's so helpful to hear your stories of how this has played out over time. And cultures. And how we can now take this common language into our own homes. So, Cherilyn, thank you so much for sharing this research. And your book with us. And thank you for being my guest today.
Cherilyn Orr: (49:21 – 49:23)
Thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: (49:24 – 53:06)
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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