284. DON'T MISS THIS! Controversial Sex Questions, Answered with Dr. Juli Slattery
*Disclaimer* This episode contains adult content and is not recommended for young listeners.
1 Samuel 24:19b NIV “May the Lord reward you well for the way you treated me today.”
*Transcription Below*
Bio:
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Questions and Topics We Cover:
As Christ followers, should we use a friend’s preferred names and pronouns?
If one part of Scripture talks about turning the other cheek, is that the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
Is it reasonable to assume that once they have a smartphone, 100% of kids will be exposed to pornography?
Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce, Including Past Episodes with Dr. Juli Slattery:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Special Patreon Release: Holy Sex: An Interview with Dr. Juli Slattery
Special Patreon Release: His Desires and Her Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
224 Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
260 Sex After Cancer with Dr. Kris Christiansen
277 Breaking Through Addiction in Marriage with Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
*Transcription*
Music: (0:11 – 0:11)
Laura Dugger: (0:11 – 2:21) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
My returning guest for today is Dr. Juli Slattery.
She has authored another book entitled Surrendered Sexuality: How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything, and we're going to cover a few themes from this book, but I think what you're going to find most helpful are her candid responses to some really tricky questions related to dating and pornography, technology, thought life, shows that we watch as believers, divorce, and just intimacy in general as married couples.
So, I think this is an episode that you're going to want to learn from yourself, but you'll also want to share with others because Dr. Juli has offered us such a gift as she directs us back to the heart issues and wisely guides us into sexual integrity in our own lives.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Juli.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:21 – 2:21) Thanks so much for having me back. It's always a joy.
Laura Dugger: (2:21 – 2:22) Well, I love that you've been a repeat guest many times. So, we get to just dive right in today because I'm going to link all of your previous episodes in the show notes. But to dive in, I'm just curious, as believers, where does your heart break as you see us compromising on God's design for sex?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (2:22 – 3:31) Hmm. That's such a good question. You know, I think my heart breaks the most in that when we compromise God's design for sexuality, or even when we don't understand it or understand His goodness, it means that there is a breach in our relationship with God.
And so, I am so passionate about what I do, not necessarily because I love talking about sexuality, but because for a lot of people, sexuality represents a wall between them and God, like an issue they can't resolve, or a place of shame that they just can't quite shake free from, or battle with sin that they feel like they're enslaved to. And so, those things mean that there's a limit to how much they invite God into their lives.
And so, for me, that's where my heart breaks the most is, you know, ultimately, we were created for the greatest fellowship with God and anything that gets in the way of that is something that God cares about and something that I care about.
Laura Dugger: (3:32 – 4:03) You say that well, and you've written many books, but in this most recent one, you plainly state one issue when you write, “You will not be able to obey God with your sexual thoughts, while binging shows and music that continually display the exact opposite.”
And I love how practical that is. So, Juli, why do you think this has become so normalized? And I would say, especially in Christian marriages.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (4:05 – 5:58) Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it is that the church has been historically really quiet about sexuality, you know, like we might talk about save sex for marriage, and don't cheat on your husband and that sort of thing. But the gray areas about how we think about our sexuality and kind of what we have the liberty and freedom to engage in, there's kind of silence, or maybe there's legalism.
And I think in that space, what ends up happening is the culture is so forthright with a message about sexuality, like woven throughout every single show that you could stream on any platform, you know, your music on Spotify, even the news you consume, the Instagram feeds, whatever, it's consistently showing you a way to understand sexuality that is contrary to God's design, and the messaging can be so subtle, or so repetitive that we don't even realize we're ingesting it.
And so, it's normal to talk about with your friends, like the latest season of The Bachelor, or, you know, the latest thing that you're streaming that if you really look at it, there's probably 100 references to sexuality that are outside of God's design. And so, we end up just having our mind conformed to this world.
And the scripture says really clearly in Romans 12, that we can't offer ourselves to God while we're still thinking like the world thinks that it requires an act of transformation of our thinking. And I don't know that there's anywhere more than we need this than in the topic of understanding our sexuality.
Laura Dugger: (6:00 – 6:59) Okay, so for I'm thinking of married couples, because I was recently at a wedding shower. And I love a friend from church. Her name is Dawn Karius. And she was giving the devotional and just sharing. You know, it's very easy to get married and fall into this trap. She was talking about what you watch specifically.
And she said, so many couples will watch something together, watch a show before bed, but be really intentional. If that is what you choose to do, then the shows that you're watching, even though you're with your spouse, is that drawing both of you closer to Christ? Because if it's pulling you further away from Christ, it's also pulling you away from one another.
And so, with all of that, and with what you've studied and written about, if a couple's hearing that and or some single person just hearing this, what would be your practical advice or encouragement for them?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (7:00 – 9:29) Yeah, some of it is, we can't live in a bubble. You know, it's, I think that there are some couples will have the conviction that, you know, we're just going to get rid of all of our devices, we're going to get rid of every streaming service. And there's nothing wrong with that decision, you might feel convicted to do that.
But for most couples, I would say, they're like, okay, we live in this world, we need to understand even the world we live in. And so, it's not like we're going to completely be cut off. But are we being discerning about what we consume?
And what are the standards that we might hit where we might just say, “You know what, we don't need to be watching this.” You know, like I can think of one show in particularly that my husband and I were watching. And it was a well-written show. It was exciting. But there was just so much profanity and just gross kind of sexual content that after two or three episodes, we're both just like, “You know what, as good as the show is, we just, this isn't, we're not watching this. Like we need to stop.”
And I think you need to have those discussions and you might have a different level of conviction than your spouse does. And that's okay, but at least have those conversations and you need to follow your conviction.
But then the other thing I would say that is equally important, if not more important, what are you consuming that helps you get God's perspective of sexuality? And what I've found is that a whole lot of Christian married couples know very little about what it looks like to build a healthy sex life in their marriage. And they're not consuming anything that helps them know how to love each other better, how to overcome differences, even how their bodies work, how to focus on one another and enjoy sex in a holy erotic way.
And so, even if you're watching and consuming very little content from the world, but you're not actively pursuing anything that gives you a biblical perspective, you're still going to end up defaulting to what the world says. And so, I think that again, it's equally as important or not, if not more important to be pursuing what's true and what's right and what's good.
Laura Dugger: (9:31 – 9:53) I love that, how you flipped it. And that discernment piece is huge because we don't want to be desensitized to then that we're consuming and we also want to feed on the good. So, I think it even leads to a broader question, again, as Christ followers, how can we recognize if our conscience is being pricked?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (9:54 – 12:05) Yeah, we can start by asking the Lord. You know, I mean, I think it's in, is it Psalm 139, where, you know, David is basically saying, “Search me, oh God, and know my thoughts, you know, show me if there's any offensive way within me.”
I think that's a beautiful prayer as an individual and as a couple, like God, we want to honor you with what we consume in media, with what we think about, would you guide us and would you show us? And then I think we all have that experience of watching something or listening to something or reading something where we're like, “Uh, I don't know, like, this is sort of a gray area. Like, I'm uncomfortable here. I probably shouldn't be watching this.” Or “Wow, that's really, that's really in your face. Like that's really graphic.”
And it's heeding the Holy Spirit when you get those prompts, instead of just pushing through and being like, “Ah, it's not that big of a deal. It's not going to affect me.” Like when you feel that sense of prompting, you respond to it and you say, “All right, I'm going to put this down. I'm going to shut this off.”
And, um, you know, the scripture says that we can become callous to those promptings of the Holy Spirit if we are in a habit of just running right through that. But we become more sensitive to the Holy Spirit when we yield and when we obey.
Um, and so, I think even just keeping track, you know, every day or every week, like where were the times regarding this or anything else that I really felt convicted by the Holy Spirit about maybe something I said about a friend, uh, or about a little white lie I told, you know, where were the times where I really felt the Holy Spirit nudging me and what did I do? Um, where do I need to confess that I didn't respond well? And where do I need to celebrate that? Yes, I listened, I obeyed, I yielded. Um, and so, I think that's a practice we get into of either ignoring that conviction or really yielding to it.
Laura Dugger: (12:06 – 12:28) Hmm. And that gets after the heart issue, which Jesus is so concerned about our heart. And that's a very softened heart approach. Yes. I hope we can have. And as it relates to sexual integrity, then what are some other ways that we need to be on guard so that we're careful not to be misled?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (12:29 – 13:37) Yeah, boy, I think there's just so much conversation. Um, again, even in Christian circles, sometimes around having a negative attitude towards sex, um, kind of accepting some forms of pornography as normal and even good, you know, husband bashing, wife bashing, you know, like complaining, kind of letting the thought feed in your mind of maybe I should have married somebody else.
Maybe that my life would be easier if I, I weren't married to this person. I wish they were this or that. So, sort of that discontent that is natural to feel in marriage. But the question is, what do you do with it? Do you give it space to grow and to nurture, or do you bring that before the Lord?
Um, so, I think those are some of the ways that we want to look at, like, how am I giving the enemy space in my life and in my marriage versus how am I inviting God to really reclaim what's broken here?
Laura Dugger: (13:38 – 14:01) Well, and then even thinking of the other side to guard ourselves from having a critical and judgmental spirit toward others or just having self-righteous pride. Can you educate us on some common reasons why some people may be predisposed to struggle with some certain sexual sins?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (14:02 – 17:20) Yeah, absolutely. I think that's so important, um, because the research really shows that some of us are more, I don't know if I'd say it that way, but we are going to be more predetermined maybe to struggle with things like pornography or same-sex attraction, or even hooking up.
And it's never like a one plus one equals two exactly. But there are what we might say indicators or risk factors that make you more vulnerable to those kinds of sexual struggles. And some of them might be unhealthy family dynamics growing up, you know, none of us had a perfect family, but let's say you grew up in a family where one of your parents was like overtly critical towards you all the time.
Maybe you went through a divorce with your parents where, um, you know, at a certain age, you just, your family fell apart and you're kind of looking for that stability and love. People who have experienced sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years are going to be more pre-dispositioned to want to understand that or act that out.
People who might struggle with anxiety. And, you know, some of it is we got to understand that sex, because it elicits dopamine in our brain and oxytocin and endorphins, which are all really feel good kind of experiences and hormones and neurotransmitters. When we had a sexual experience at a young age, our brain can learn, “Oh, this is how I deal with stress. This is how I deal with depression. This is how I deal with loneliness.”
So, a lot of times when you talk to somebody who has an ongoing struggle with a sexual temptation or sin, it's because they've learned as a pattern from maybe the time they were 10 years old or 12 years old or 15 years old, that this is how I dealt with the stress in my family. This is how I dealt with when my father died. This is how I dealt with when I was sexually abused. Like this was the way that I found to self-regulate and to self-medicate and to find comfort.
And that can be masturbation. It can be pornography or again, you know, acting out sexually. And so, for people who have that kind of story, and this might be your spouse, or this might be against somebody that you're looking at and judging to just say, “You need to stop that behavior,” is often not going to be enough. They need to do the work of really looking at what am I using sex for? What are the wounds that I'm using sex to cover up?
And how do I actually get the healing I need and find healthier and safer ways for me to cope with negative emotions? And that's why groups are really important for people who have sexual struggles. Counseling is really important. And again, that long journey of healing and freedom, not just a one-time decision that I'm going to try to never do this again.
Laura Dugger: (17:21 – 20:19) Love that word freedom, even because that hope is available. And just pointing out how you said this is not deterministic. That's not what we're saying is if you experience something, you will act out sexually. But I agree with you that it is fascinating and helpful to hear the correlation of certain things that happen, especially in childhood, and how that plays out long-term.
And I am blanking on which guest it was on The Savvy Sauce, but somebody was enlightening me. I think it was for females that if they were sexually abused, typically before a certain age, then they were more likely to struggle in marriage with wanting to completely avoid sex. But then if it was after a certain age, that it was completely opposite where they maybe used sex to medicate, or they were very aggressive and even would act out, let's say in single years, that they would sleep around with a bunch of partners if they had been wounded.
And so, I just think it just, it helps us to not be judgmental of one another. We don't know the full story.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (20:20 – 21:09) Yes. Yeah. There's always more there than we usually realize at first. And, you know, this plays out a lot in marriage because there are a lot of women who are married to guys who are addicted to pornography. And that's a deeply painful dynamic. That's really hard.
But to understand that your husband didn't want to have this struggle, often doesn't know how to get out of it, you know, gives you compassion. It doesn't mean that you look the other way, you need to get help, and you need to insist on getting help. But it does give you empathy and compassion that there's something underlying this and feeding it. It's not just, “Oh, I think I'm going to, you know, look at porn and hurt my wife again,” that there's always a deeper dynamic at work.
Laura Dugger: (21:10 – 21:50) Absolutely. And even an example from your book, I'll just read a quote where you said, “I spoke with a man who runs a sexual addiction program. He told me he had never met someone with sexual addiction, who did not also have significant sexual or psychological trauma in their past.”
And I think it goes along with what we're saying. But if we also then flip it and look at more of the positive side, how can we rightly prioritize connection and intimacy in marriage as God intended?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (21:53 – 24:24) I think first of all, we need to be convinced that this is worth it. You know, when we look at everything there is to do in life, there's so many worthy demands on our time. You know, from I want my house to look nice, and we need to make friends and we need to be an outreach to our community. And our kids are taking a lot of time and they should, and they've got all their activities and our church needs our help. Like when do you have time to do all this? And then, oh yeah, prioritize your marriage.
And I think we have to become convinced that if we're not working on our marriage, and specifically if we're not working on the sexual connection in marriage, then all those other things have the potential to fall apart. That the way I've learned it over time is that sex is never going to be a neutral issue in your marriage. It's either going to be something that is bonding you together and causing you to work on the deeper levels of intimacy, even as you talk through sexual difficulties, or it's going to be something not immediately, but over time, that becomes a wedge between you.
It might start as a wedge of resentment of my needs aren't getting met, or I feel like you're objectifying me or you're putting pressure on me. Or it might be a deeper wedge of a pornography addiction or something that's not being addressed. Or I don't trust my husband because of my trauma. And those things don't just stay dormant. The wedge becomes bigger and bigger and bigger until you get to the place where now you're not comfortable being in the same room anymore and you feel like roommates. And then now one of you is attracted to somebody else and the story plays on.
And there are very wonderful godly men and women who have gotten married with every purpose to stay together. But a wedge like this has grown over time to the point where they're now thinking about divorce or one of them has cheated on the other. And so, we have to be convinced that honoring God in our lives means prioritizing our marriage, and it means working on this intimate aspect of our marriage so that we can be a stable foundation for our families and our churches and our communities.
Laura Dugger: (24:26 – 24:39) And so, if we're getting as practical as possible, what are the best practices that you've seen in married couples who are happily married? How have you experienced that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (24:40 – 28:04) Yeah. I'll put it in kind of like a cliche sort of way because I think sometimes that's catchy. Number one, I would say they're couples who will resist the drift, who will repair the rift, and who will adjust to the shift.
So, I can kind of break that down a little bit. But you know, the first thing is resisting the drift of you can go weeks without meaningfully connecting with your spouse. And I don't just mean sexually, but I mean like eye to eye, you know, just loving touch, just connecting to their hearts. And so, couples who know how to resist that drift, like they have regular times built into their calendar where this is where we connect every day. Like even for 10 minutes, this is where we hold each other's hands, we look at each other in the eye, we really connect with what's in your heart, how are you? And they have regular rhythms of once a week or once every other week, we're going to go out and do something fun together, just the two of us. We've worked through what sex looks like in this season. Like how many times do we want to have sex? Are we scheduling that? How are we making sure that's a priority? And so, that's the resisting the drift.
And the second one is repairing the rift. And at every marriage, there are going to be things that tear you apart. And sometimes those things might be sexual in nature, like a temptation, an emotional affair, pornography use, sometimes it's going to be something else where you have a deep disagreement that you can't resolve on your own. And you need to be courageous enough to reach out for help and say, like, if we don't get help, if we don't address this issue, like it's going to become something that tears us apart. Any couple that you meet who is happily married for like 30 years or more, they can tell you a story of when they had a rift, and the kind of help that really address that.
And then I think the third thing is adjusting to the shift. And in even the normal stages of marriage, there are shifts that happen. Like, you know, I'm in the stage right now where me and the people my age are going through biological changes with menopause and with aging. And, you know, some people are going through becoming grandparents and retirement. And there's all these shifts that are happening even naturally. There's other couples that are younger who are going through the shift of pregnancy and battling infertility. And some people are going through cancer. And there are things that happen that require you to shift your expectations. And to not just wish that it is like it used to be. But this is the marriage we have now. Here are the circumstances we have now. Here are the bodies we have now. How do we learn to love each other and embrace this season, given the changes that we're experiencing?
And so, I think that's a framework that I've seen healthy couples navigate over time that really fosters intimacy.
Laura Dugger: (28:05 – 29:29) That is incredible. I love how you put that. And I've shared with you before that my background is in Christian sex therapy. So, sex is a topic that does come up a lot and people feel comfortable sharing or asking questions. So, just in regular conversation, I want to recap two conversations that kind of show stances on both ends of the spectrum.
And I'd love to hear your wisdom on how to respond to each one.
So, first, there was a Christian married woman with children, and she was teaching younger women to say yes to every single sexual advance from their husband. And she said, “If your husband has the higher drive, and he wants to have sex twice a day, then consider yourself lucky. And don't ever say no, because your body is not your own.” Yeah, it's hard to recap. So, this is not my perspective. So, sharing both ends.
So, that was one person. And then on the other end, I've heard a woman tell me, “You know, I just didn't feel like having sex for about a year and a half after we had our baby. So, I just told my husband, you're going to have to wait.”
So, loaded question, but Dr. Juli, how would you respond to each of those?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (29:29 – 32:31) Well, Laura, I feel like you probably would have just as good of response as I would to those. Yeah, I like that you're presenting those as two extremes, because they are two extremes. And I think both extremes kind of miss the heart. We want to be able to say yes to sex and intimacy. And being able to say yes means also being able to say no.
In that first situation, essentially, what is going to end up happening is that that wife is going to start feeling like my husband wants me for sex. And I don't have the capacity to enjoy it twice a day. I'm starting to feel like an object or used. And the husband is never going to learn that covenant love requires self-denial. And at every level, you know, what did, what did Paul say to husbands in Ephesians 5, like love your wife as you love your own body and be willing to lay down your, your life for your wife. And that means being sensitive to the fact that she doesn't have the same sexual appetite as you do. She doesn't have the same biology you do, that it actually can be physically painful, emotionally traumatic for a wife to have sex when she's not physically ready. Really, that couple is not working on intimacy. They're, they're kind of reinforcing a pattern that sex is about the husband getting his needs and desires met only through the wife without considering her. And that might work for short term, but that's not building intimacy in the long term. And it's not teaching either of them. And that wife needs to learn her own sexual desires and patterns and be able to communicate those to her husband. So, that's what I would say in that first one.
And the second one, essentially, you have a wife kind of having that more selfish perspective of, I only have sex when I want it and on my terms, instead of considering the husband. And, you know, how do I focus on him? How do I work on experiencing sexual desire? How do I foster that? Because it's important for my husband, it's important for our marriage. And I don't want to be selfish.
And so, I think both of those situations are kind of approaching sex where one person gets to be selfish, and the other person has to sacrifice. That's ministry, that's not intimacy. And so, we really want to be at a place where both of us, the higher desire one and the lower desire one, are learning what does it look like to really love well, to love sacrificially and to communicate the ways that I feel loved. I don't know, what would you add to that or change?
Laura Dugger: (32:31 – 33:11) That's why I asked you, you said that beautifully, better than I could have responded. And again, you're getting back to the heart of it and pointing us back to Jesus with each answer. And, you know, commonly people do struggle with having a safe place where they can ask candid questions about sex.
So, I am going to throw some more at you. And some of these are ones that you wrote about. But just to give us a little taste, even of the book, or if somebody has a burning question like this, I'd love your healthy response.
So, how do you respond when people ask, “How far is too far to go in a dating relationship?”
Dr. Juli Slattery: (33:14 – 36:32) Yeah, I think people are looking for a line, you know, like, as long as I don't cross this line, are we good? And of course, I think their traditional line would be as long as you're not having intercourse. But I think that misses the larger context of the purpose of sex. I've had to be convicted of this in my own life. And we talked very early in our conversation about how we've just sort of ingested messages from the culture. And the culture says that healthy sexuality is an expression of how I feel, right? So, so if I feel safe with you, if I feel romantically connected to you, if I feel sexually attracted to you, then it would be healthy for me to engage sexually with you. And then Christians would come and say, yes, but as long as you don't cross this line. So, that's sort of the narrative that I think a lot of us have heard in the church.
But if we look at, from a biblical perspective, God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. Okay, let that sink in for a minute. God did not design sex to be an expression of how I feel. He designed it to be a seal and a celebration of covenant, of the choice that a man and a woman make to covenant their lives to one another. And for them to say, just like I give you my whole life, I promise faithfulness to you. I promise that we are becoming one as a family. We have now a physical way to symbolize that in becoming one with our bodies. And so, even if I feel romantically attached to somebody I'm not married to, I don't act on that. Or even if I don't feel romantically attached to my husband, we work on our sex life because we're in covenant.
And so, when you begin to understand sex from that standpoint, you answer that question differently of how far can I go? Why are you sharing your body with another person when you haven't shared your life with them? And, you know, I think that the standard is not legalistic, but the heart of the question is a lot, that's a harder question. You know, like it says, and I think 2 Thessalonians or 1 Thessalonians, you know, Paul says, the will of God is that you do not engage in sexual immorality. Don't take advantage of a brother or sister.
And how many times in dating relationships do you look back and you're like, “Wow, I gave too much of myself to that person or I took too much of myself from that person. Like we engaged in things that now we're broken apart. Like I wish I could take back.” And so, what does it look like to honor each other? What does it look like to honor the Lord? So, I think those kinds of questions help you get to the heart of how do we steward dating relationships a lot better than looking for a line we're not supposed to cross.
Laura Dugger: (36:33 – 37:31) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you? Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world.
So, we need your help.
Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.
As Christ followers, should we use a friend's preferred names and pronouns? So, how would you respond to that?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (37:32 – 39:20) Boy, this is a hot topic. There are people who have really strong opinions on this. You're saying, do I use a friend's preferred names and pronouns?
And I think the fact that you have a friendship means that you can have a deeper conversation about the meaning of the names and pronouns. And I think that deeper conversation needs to happen. Because, you know, ultimately we don't like, we don't want to just say, “Oh yeah, whatever you want to call yourself is fine with me. Truth doesn't matter.” But on the other hand, we really want to get to the spiritual issue underneath this. And there's a, there's a big difference between somebody who doesn't know the Lord, doesn't know where you stand on any of this, and somebody that you can engage in a conversation with and seek wisdom on.
I think there, there's probably more latitude to use somebody's preferred name than pronouns. And I think in friendships, sometimes you can work that through and just say, you know, “Hey, I love you. I understand where you're coming from. I'm going to try my best to use the name that you're asking. But the pronoun is something that I'm not comfortable with. And here's why. And just like I'm, I want to understand where you are. I hope that you would have grace and understand where I am.” So, in a friendship, you're able to have those kinds of conversations. Whereas if it's a coworker or it's a stranger or a neighbor, sometimes we can't have that level of conversation. And so, I, we might choose to handle the situation a little differently.
Laura Dugger: (39:21 – 39:36) That's good. A hundred percent truth, a hundred percent love or kindness. And what if somebody asks, how much attention should we be giving these secondary issues as believers?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (39:39 – 41:03) Boy, I, I think first of all, the secondary issues come out of the primary issues. So, the primary issue, and you know, the issue I wrote Surrendered Sexuality is about is if my life belongs to the Lord, then my whole life needs to belong to Him, including how I think about cultural issues, including how I treat my neighbor.
And so, I don't see them as secondary issues. I see them as an outgrowth of the primary issue. I think when they become secondary issues are when we argue with other believers about it and it becomes the most important thing. Like I put you in a category based on, will you use preferred names and pronouns? And then I think we're missing what God calls us to.
The primary issue is that we want to honor God and we want to love each other. And so, let's keep going back to that primary issue. How do I love my neighbor well? How do I honor God's truth well? How do I pursue unity within the body of Christ well, as we're navigating some of these secondary issues? So, you know, like if we're going back to the primary issue, it means that we have to talk about the secondary issues, but we talk about them in light of what's primary.
Laura Dugger: (41:04 – 41:17) I like that. And I just have three more of these kind of tricky questions. So, another one, does pornography addiction qualify as reasons for a biblical divorce?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (41:20 – 42:50) I would say, first of all, technically, if we look at the word for sexual immorality in the scripture, which is porneia, we would say, yeah, you know, pornography does qualify for that.
But for the person who's asking this, maybe the woman who's asking this, I would say, why do you want to get out of the marriage? And what Jesus said is Moses permitted divorce because of the hardness of your heart. And I think a more important question is where's your heart and where's your husband's heart? Because I've seen people with pornography addictions who have really open hearts towards healing, and they're willing to get the help that they need. They're repentant. They're willing to do the work. They're willing to go through even a time of separation to show that they're serious about that work.
And then there are people who have very hard hearts of, “This is who I am. I might go through the motions, but I'm really not interested in change.” And so, I think the pornography addiction is less the issue than the posture of the person's heart and their willingness to work. And if your spouse is willing to work, then I think it's on us to have soft hearts too, and to be open to the work that God can do.
Laura Dugger: (42:51 – 43:34) That's good because saying you have to zoom out and see more of the story in that stance, because that's very different. Somebody who's working on it and hates the struggle and is wanting to break free versus being married to a narcissist who is abusing you and treating you in a certain way and addicted to pornography. So, you point out well that all of these questions have more to them.
Okay. So, two more, if a spouse has had an emotional affair in the past with a coworker, but they still work with this person, what is the wise thing to do and how should they handle it if their spouse is uncomfortable with them still working there?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (43:36 – 44:33) Yeah, boy, that's something that I would want to seek counseling on. You and your spouse really need to get with a counselor and talk that through. The generic advice in that situation would be to get a different job, to not have that relationship still a temptation or available.
But there are sometimes very extenuating circumstances where that's not a possibility, or at least for now, that's not a possibility. And so, I would really encourage you to meet with a third party to sort through the details of your particular situation. Because it could be that your spouse isn't willing to take that hard step of cutting off that relationship, or it could be that they're willing, but again, there's extenuating circumstances. And I would really want a wise person who is engaging with you to help you navigate that.
Laura Dugger: (44:34 – 44:44) But I love that, how you highlight that something to look for though, is that you would hope your spouse would be willing to make that right, especially if they were the offending.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (44:46 – 44:46) Okay.
Laura Dugger: (44:47 – 45:00) And then also, Juli, because scripture does talk about turning the other cheek, does that mean it's the same as saying God expects you to stay in an abusive marriage?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (45:02 – 47:41) Absolutely not. If you were in an abusive marriage, you are not doing your spouse any good. You are allowing your spouse to be in a place where they're destroying their own life and they're destroying the people that they love.
Now you say, okay, where biblically do we see this? We see that Jesus, he says in John, he says, “I laid down my life for my sheep. I lay it down willingly. No one has the authority to take it from me. I have the authority to lay it down and I have the authority to take it up again.” And we see Him living that out with religious leaders who were after Him all the time, who wanted to stone Him, who were accusing Him of things. It says over and over again that Jesus escaped from them. He just got out of there until it was time that the Father said, now is the time for you to give yourself for the world.
So, we take that principle and we say, Jesus was not abused. Jesus did not let Himself be abused. He gave Himself as a lamb to the slaughter as a sacrifice for the Father and for the world. But that's very different. Up until that time, we see Him have great boundaries. We see Him not get, it even says He didn't entrust Himself to man because He knew what was in their hearts. I mean, He had boundaries with people that could have hurt Him.
And I also love when we see this in the story of King David and Saul, when Saul is chasing David, Saul is abusive, right? He wants to kill David. And so, David escapes. And there's a situation where David has the power or the opportunity to kill Saul and he doesn't do it. And then Saul just is struck by his conscience, and he comes back to David. He goes, “You're a better man than I am. I'm so sorry. You know, come back with me and I'll treat you well.” And even though David doesn't take revenge, he doesn't go back with Saul. He's still, he's like, “You go your way. I'll go my way. I'm going to let the Lord judge between us.”
And I think that's a great model. If you're in any kind of abusive relationship, you don't take revenge, but you also don't stay in that situation. You go your way, let them go their way, and you let God judge between you. And I think we see that over and over again in scripture.
Laura Dugger: (47:42 – 48:19) I think that is so well said. And it reminds me of a somewhat recent conversation in 2025 with Stacey Womack who's saying with domestic violence, really the way God would see it is child abuse. And that kind of helps our paradigm because we are His child.
And she elaborates on that. So, I said that that was the last one, but I actually thought of one more as it relates to our children.
So, is it reasonable to assume that once a child has a smartphone, 100% of them will be exposed to pornography?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (48:21 – 49:15) Yeah, it is. And I would say not just once they have a smartphone, because I know with one of my kids, we delayed the smartphone decision, but he had a learning disability that required him to have an iPad for school. And somehow, even though we locked down all the apps, somehow he's able to access it through that. Or it can be a gaming system, or it can be a friend's phone. And so, having a smartphone or device like that certainly makes it more probable.
But you know, like our kids are surrounded by screens and technology, not just what's in our home, but in other people's homes and at school. And so, I think it's safe to assume, unfortunately, that yes, 100% of our kids are going to be exposed to pornography, probably by the time they're 13 or 14.
Laura Dugger: (49:16 – 49:31) And sadly, some much younger than that. But even if there's parental controls, or filters put on, it is just something on my heart that we have to be so vigilant against.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (49:32 – 50:12) Yeah, no, I felt like when, you know, I have three boys, and when they were all three kind of in those teen years, I felt like I was trying to plug holes in a boat, and there'd be new ones popping up all the time. Whether it's like apps, or you know, things that you think are completely safe. Somehow, pornography can get through.
And our kids are smart, like they know the workarounds to the parental things. And that's why we just need to have conversation after conversation, just discipling them, not just protecting them from pornography, but discipling them through what they're inevitably going to be exposed to.
Laura Dugger: (50:13 – 51:05) That's a great point that not just being reactive, but proactive. I think why I have such a heart for this is because practicing and doing therapy and having so many people come in those wounds, that if that addiction gets a stronghold, and that pornography use, it just can wreak havoc in people long term. And so, if we can do that hard work of discipling early on, it is such a blessing to our children, to the generation.
So, I'm just so grateful for your candid responses. And I think it's also a helpful reminder just to never take on a burden that was never meant for us to carry. So, are there any ways that God has taught you to not try and do His business?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (51:07 – 52:16) Yeah. Boy, that's such a great question. I've had to come to the conclusion that I can't convince anyone of right and wrong. You know, like, I can't convince anyone that pornography is wrong, or gay marriage is wrong, or you know, like, that's not my job. My job is to walk with the Lord with integrity and faithfulness and to testify as to who He is.
And so much of this work, whether we're talking about marriage or our friends or our children, so much of this work has to be the Lord's work. And you reach a stage with your kids when they hit those teen years, where you realize the things my kids most need, I can't give them. I can't give them a relationship with God. I can't give them the desire to follow and seek the Lord. Like, I can model that for them. I can encourage them. But that is between them and the Lord. And if I try to control that, I'm just getting in the way of the work that God wants to do in their lives.
Laura Dugger: (52:18 – 52:33) Goodness, I will need to write that down and reflect on that. That is so good, Juli. And there's still so much more that you could share with us.
So, where is your preferred place that we can go online and continue learning from you?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (52:34 – 52:48) Yeah, I would say two places. Number one, our website is authenticintimacy.com. And the second one is the podcast that I do called Java with Juli. It goes along with The Savvy Sauce, you know, like they kind of go together.
Laura Dugger: (52:49 – 53:11) Yes, absolutely. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode.
And you're familiar, I've asked you many times before, because we are called savvy, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, as my final question for you today, Dr. Juli, what is your savvy sauce?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (53:13 – 53:58) Oh, I don't even remember how I answered this the last few times. I think I may have said this before, but I think reading the dead old guys is one of my savvy sauce, like reading people who didn't live in this generation who loved the Lord.
And learning from them is just, that's probably taught me more discernment than anything, because they just cut right through the cultural noise that I think sometimes can blind us. And they really help me see my heart for what it is and help me really want to pursue God at a deeper level.
Laura Dugger: (53:59 – 54:03) Wow. Any specific recommendations that have been personal favorites there?
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:04 – 54:22) Yeah, I love A.W. Tozer. I love many of Andrew Murray's books, particularly Humility and Absolute Surrender. And C.S. Lewis is another great one, Mere Christianity. So, those are some that I would recommend you start with.
Laura Dugger: (54:23 – 54:44) That is wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.
And Juli, it's just always such a delight to get to share an hour of conversation with you. And you are just this beautiful mixture of bold and gentle and humble, all combined into one. So, thank you for being my returning guest today.
Dr. Juli Slattery: (54:44 – 54:49) Oh, thank you. And it's such a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for your great questions.
Laura Dugger: (54:51 – 58:33) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.
Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.
We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.
That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.
This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.
Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.
Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.
And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.
First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.
You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.
And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
Related Episodes
